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Thread: Was the fall necessary ?

  1. #211
    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    I may have misunderstood you but here's the question...

    How does man's, free choice / not will, rob God of his attributes?
    Adam's willfulness was never free to disobey God (Adam was put under the Law before he sinned Genesis 2:16-17) and his disobedience and breaking of the Law, only robbed him of his original innocence.

    The actions of Adam did not change God in the least. Adam only changed Adam . . as well as the human race he represented as federal head.
    Last edited by Nang; September 15th, 2019 at 03:33 PM.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    I may have misunderstood you but here's the question...

    How does man's, free choice / not will, rob God of his attributes?
    Because it makes him soveriegn, Cntrysner!

    If she says ANYTHING else, it's a lie. But she won't. That's what she believes.

    “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

    “We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

    "I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will...

    ...Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23)

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  4. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    It is you who cares nothing about a real discussion, not me. You continue to think that just because a singluar pronoun is not used that the reference must be in regard to many people and it couldn't possibly be in reference to a single person.

    All you do is run and hide from the points which I raise and pretend that you actually have an answer.
    I like what I'm seeing here. Way to go at it.

    Jerry for the life of me, you are hard to figure out. Are you sure you don't hold yourself under the law in some way, in your heart? Can not figure out the forever time or what was it that you professed? It was something on the basis of promises given before the promise was even fully manifested by God's decree in Christ. It sounds like putting the cart before the horse to me. Tie it all together for me if you will in your on words for just a moment without your repetitive use of selective scripture or quoting your favorite theologian.

  5. #214
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    I will not take that as a personal attack even though you probably meant it that way..

    As you pointed out, you have been here for decades therefore I submit to your judgement . I accept my mistake and ask for your forgiveness and give you the golden triangle. I will catch up in time and will admit that my process of one on one may not be appropriate in an open forum but can still be possible. If I am allowed to catch up to you I could be helpful because I can condemn with the best.

    I do judge myself as self righteous believe me and still count you as a friend in Christ and someone that I can enjoy because you point out my flaws.
    Look man, I don't understand you at all. What you say and what you mean don't seem to line up. I'll figure you out eventually but for now, I just don't get it.

    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt because of one single sentence in that last post...

    "Aren't we appointed to judge?"

    There's not 1% of people who call themselves Christians who would ever utter that sentence. The fact that you understand that much gains you more credit in my eyes than all the Calvinists on this site (and most everyone else) combined.

    Let me just assure you that my animosity toward fools like b57 and Nang is not born out of a mere doctrinal disagreement as though it were some sort of knee jerk reaction to some pet peeve of mine. Nang showed up here on this forum (years ago now) for the express purpose of harassing me personally because she couldn't abide the fact that I totally destroyed her husband in a debate on immutability on another forum. She has been openly hostile toward me since before the first day she ever posted here and if you stick around long enough you'll see Nang in her true colors. She's not the least bit interested in a real substantive exchange. She's just like the rest of the Calvinists. She states her doctrine and think's that saying it makes it so.

    I should try to find that old debate and send you a link to it if it still exists. It's a terrific example of how sound reason and perfectly reasonable questions just drive Calvinists insane. I couldn't have been more respectful and substantive in that debate and they all HATED me and wanted me banned from the site. I didn't call anyone names, I didn't so much as type in all caps. All I did was make an argument that they had no answer for. But that was enough! I mean, let me tell you, that was more than enough to send them into hysterics.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Adam's willfulness was never free to disobey God (Adam was put under the Law before he sinned Genesis 1:16-17) and his disobedience and breaking of the Law, only robbed him of his original innocence.

    The actions of Adam did not change God in the least. Adam only changed Adam . . as well as the human race he represented as federal head.
    There you go, I made it clear that I did not want you to respond to Adam's free will. I want you to, for a moment, consider Adam as having free choice. Free choice is different from free will, do you understand that concept?

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Look man, I don't understand you at all. What you say and what you mean don't seem to line up. I'll figure you out eventually but for now, I just don't get it.

    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt because of one single sentence in that last post...

    "Aren't we appointed to judge?"

    There's not 1% of people who call themselves Christians who would ever utter that sentence. The fact that you understand that much gains you more credit in my eyes than all the Calvinists on this site (and most everyone else) combined.

    Let me just assure you that my animosity toward fools like b57 and Nang is not born out of a mere doctrinal disagreement as though it were some sort of knee jerk reaction to some pet peeve of mine. Nang showed up here on this forum (years ago now) for the express purpose of harassing me personally because she couldn't abide the fact that I totally destroyed her husband in a debate on immutability on another forum. She has been openly hostile toward me since before the first day she ever posted here and if you stick around long enough you'll see Nang in her true colors. She's not the least bit interested in a real substantive exchange. She's just like the rest of the Calvinists. She states her doctrine and think's that saying it makes it so.

    I should try to find that old debate and send you a link to it if it still exists. It's a terrific example of how sound reason and perfectly reasonable questions just drive Calvinists insane. I couldn't have been more respectful and substantive in that debate and they all HATED me and wanted me banned from the site. I didn't call anyone names, I didn't so much as type in all caps. All I did was make an argument that they had no answer for. But that was enough! I mean, let me tell you, that was more than enough to send them into hysterics.

    Clete

    I'm on board, thumbs up.

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  10. #217
    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    There you go, I made it clear that I did not want you to respond to Adam's free will. I want you to, for a moment, consider Adam as having free choice. Free choice is different from free will, do you understand that concept?
    Choice is an exercise of the will.

    Because Adam was put under lawful commands from God, he was not free to choose to exercise his will contrary to the stated will of God.

    Adam's choosing to do so, corrupted his entire being, and all his offspring have inherited his ruination. I Corinthians 15:47-50 Since Adam's original sinful act, all humans possess a will that is corrupt and totally held enslaved by the devil in the bondage of sin/death* and incapable of choosing righteousness. (Romans 7:7-24; 8:7-8,20)

    Do you understand that concept?

    *See Martin Luther's, "The Bondage of the Will"
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Choice is an exercise of the will.
    Not true, if you choose God's will, how is it your will?

    Because Adam was put under lawful commands from God, he was not free to choose to exercise his will contrary to the stated will of God.
    Adam by choice, not will, took of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Did God make him do it or did Adam choose to?

    Adam's choosing to do so, corrupted his entire being, and all his offspring have inherited his ruination. I Corinthians 15:47-50 Since Adam's original sinful act, all humans possess a will that is corrupt and totally held enslaved by the devil in the bondage of sin/death* and incapable of choosing righteousness. (Romans 7:7-24; 8:7-8,20)

    Do you understand that concept?

    *See Martin Luther's, "The Bondage of the Will"
    How do you separate yourself for Adam, it seems you need to?

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    @Nang,

    You said...Adam's choosing to do so, corrupted his entire being". You agree by your own words that Adam had choice?

  13. #220
    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    Not true, if you choose God's will, how is it your will?
    It is my choice, which reflects my will, to be obedient to God's will.




    Adam by choice, not will, took of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Did God make him do it or did Adam choose to?
    Adam willfully made the choice to do what God commanded him not to do. Not ignorantly nor blindly, for God warned in the command that when Adam chose to disobey it would result in death. Genesis 2:17

    This action of Adam did not demonstrate the exercise of a "free" will, but revealed human LAWLESSNESS which only results in Godly separation and eventual death . . both physical and spiritual death.



    How do you separate yourself for Adam, it seems you need to?
    The only remedy to escape the choice Adam made, as our federal head, is to place our faith in the virtues and choices of Jesus Christ, who alone, as a Man, and as the federal head of His church, accomplished doing all the will of God and obeying the Laws of God, perfectly on their behalf. I Corinthians 15:45-49,57; Romans 7:24-8:4

    We are justified by faith in His righteousness, alone. Romans 6:22-23

    John 8:32
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

  14. #221
    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    @Nang,

    You said...Adam's choosing to do so, corrupted his entire being". You agree by your own words that Adam had choice?
    I agree that Adam was created a willful being, made in the image of God, but he made a choice that went contrary to the commands and will of God.

    Man cannot live apart from or in opposition to God's will.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

  15. #222
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    @Cntrysner & @Nang,


    You two need to define terms. And I mean, you need to define terms very precisely because you are talking past one another.

    Cntrysner, Nang's post 221 does not mean what the words would seem to make it mean if any normal English speaking human being stopped by and read it. She DOES NOT believe that Adam could have done otherwise. And she thinks that if any choice has consequences then it isn't free. She, just like every other Calvinist you will EVER encounter has alternative definitions for a large percentage of the Christian vernacular. You will get no where until you have her give you the definition of a whole list of concepts, including Sovereignty, Free will, God's will, Choice, etc.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  17. #223
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    I agree that Adam was created a willful being, made in the image of God, but he made a choice that went contrary to the commands and will of God.

    Man cannot live apart from or in opposition to God's will.
    He can't live? You mean that he cannot act in opposition to God's will, right?

    “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

    “We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  19. #224
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Adam's choosing to do so, corrupted his entire being, and all his offspring have inherited his ruination.
    How can that be true since the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things"?:

    "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    It is my choice, which reflects my will, to be obedient to God's will.


    Adam willfully made the choice to do what God commanded him not to do. Not ignorantly nor blindly, for God warned in the command that when Adam chose to disobey it would result in death. Genesis 2:17

    This action of Adam did not demonstrate the exercise of a "free" will, but revealed human LAWLESSNESS which only results in Godly separation and eventual death . . both physical and spiritual death.
    You said:

    1)"Adam willfully made the choice"

    2)"This action of Adam did not demonstrate the exercise of a "free" will"

    Seriously, how does this even make sense?

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