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Thread: Was the fall necessary ?

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    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    Was the fall necessary ?

    Rom 5:12

    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Was the fall necessary ?

    Rom 5:12

    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    If determinism is true, then the fall (and the entirety of human history) was completely unnecessary.

    If free-will is true, then the fall was necessary to prove that God gave mankind free-will.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    If determinism is true, then the fall (and the entirety of human history) was completely unnecessary.
    I don't think you understand what the word "necessary" means.

    If determinism is true then every event that occcurs is a logical necessity, by definition.

    If free-will is true, then the fall was necessary to prove that God gave mankind free-will.
    This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!

    Care to make an attempt to prove this claim?

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Does sin coming as a result of the fall bring Glory to God through Jesus Christ ?
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Your OP and subsequent question reveals you have a warped view of what the fall was and what sin is.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    PS The manner in which a question is framed reveals more about the spiritual state of the questioner than they would normally reveal. Many questions are laced with irreverence and consequently, give off the stench of the pit.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Rom 5:12

    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Yes indeed the fall was necessary !

    The fall in Adam, who was an Elect Son of God Luke 3:38, [originally the Federal Head of all God's Elect Sons Eph. 1:4 exclusively]; it was necessary for the fulfillment of God's Eternal Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus for them, that He would be Glorified by their Salvation from sin.


    Eph. 3:9-11

    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:


    Christ had already been designated from Everlasting, the Covenant Head and Surety Heb. 7:22 of all the Elect in the Everlasting Covenant of Grace Heb. 13:20 before the world began, as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev. 13:8b to give His Life for the Sheep to Save them from their sins Is. 53:6.
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    Yes indeed the fall was necessary !

    The fall in Adam, who was an Elect Son of God Luke 3:38, [originally the Federal Head of all God's Elect Sons Eph. 1:4 exclusively]; it was necessary for the fulfillment of God's Eternal Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus for them, that He would be Glorified by their Salvation from sin.


    Eph. 3:9-11

    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:


    Christ had already been designated from Everlasting, the Covenant Head and Surety Heb. 7:22 of all the Elect in the Everlasting Covenant of Grace Heb. 13:20 before the world began, as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev. 13:8b to give His Life for the Sheep to Save them from their sins Is. 53:6.
    Amen I agree Sister!

    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Does sin coming as a result of the fall bring Glory to God through Jesus Christ ?

    Yes, sin coming as a result of the fall does bring Glory to God through Jesus Christ.

    For every Elect Son of God, because Made in His Image and Likeness Gen. 1:26, shall be conformed to the Image of His Son, and confirmed to be so, when they are given New Birth.


    Rom. 8:29-30

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    The best (and worst) part about these Calvinist echo chamber threads is that it demonstrates their abject hatred for justice, their earnest desire to twist the word of God to fit their blasphemies and the depraved nature of their deceased minds.

    This is what they would like for you to believe...

    That God receives glory from having predestined not only that Adam would sin but that every man woman and child in existence would be born evil with no ability to do anything good whatsoever, and that whatever it is they do or don't do was also predestined by God before any of them existed and that the overwhelming majority of them would be sent to an eternal Hell as punishment for those same predestined actions that they neither chose to do nor could have avoided performing.

    This is what b57 and Nanja call justice! Don't believe me? Ask them!

    Clete
    Last edited by Clete; August 31st, 2019 at 07:07 AM.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    By asking if the fall was necessary you bring into question the wisdom of the Eternal Almighty and in turn, you cause others to do likewise. Nothing that has been created and brought into being has been done without the wisdom of forethought.

    Are you questioning the fall of man or the angelic fall because they differ in reason and purpose.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    I don't get it. Help me understand where our beliefs are different...if they are.
    1. God is omniscient.
    2. God knew Adam would reject Him (sin)
    3. God did not program Adam to sin.
    4. God chose us even though there is no righteousness in us.
    5. We don't fully understand why God chose us.
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    We don't fully understand why God chose us.
    The LORD God chooses those who believe the gospel for salvation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    If determinism is true, then the fall (and the entirety of human history) was completely unnecessary.

    If free-will is true, then the fall was necessary to prove that God gave mankind free-will.
    Since we can imagine that with our free will no one chose to reject HIM nor chose to rebel against HIM, would not HE have been able to start the heavenly state without any suffering for sin or death? If so, then the fall was NOT necessary in the least even though it was a product of free will.

    IF no one was choosing sin and the proof was necessary then HE would have to cause our sin and that negates our free will.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    I don't get it. Help me understand where our beliefs are different...if they are.

    1. God is omniscient.
    The classical understanding of omniscience is based on pagan Greek philosophy and not the bible. It's foundational premise is the idea that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. It is not biblical - period.

    God knows what He wants to know of that which is knowable.

    2. God knew Adam would reject Him (sin)
    God could not have "known" that Adam would sin, in the sense you mean it. God fully expected it and had planned for such an event but that's not the same as "knowing" in the absolute sense of the term.

    3. God did not program Adam to sin.
    This is where the Calvinists will disagree with you. They absolutely do believe that Adam's sin was not simply a foregone conclusion but that God Himself planned and infallibly predestined his sin. Adam's sin, according to the Calvinist, was conceived in the mind of God an eternity before Adam ever existed.

    In reality, Adam could have chosen not to follow Eve and abstained from eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil but he chose of his own volition to rebel against God. This is why we know that God could not have "known" that Adam would sin. God's absolute foreknowledge would have turned Adam's sin from a real possibility into a logical necessity.

    4. God chose us even though there is no righteousness in us.
    God chooses those who repent and respond to Him in faith.

    5. We don't fully understand why God chose us.
    God did not choose you in any sort of arbitrary manner, which is precisely what the Calvinists teach and believe. They would have you believe that one has faith because God chose them, in reality it's the other way around.

    It isn't that complicated. God decided that He would have mercy on those who respond to Him in faith. In various times throughout history, that has taken different forms but today, God's mercy is afforded to those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that God raised Him from the dead. If that's you then you're one of God's chosen not because your faith earns any merit but because of God's choice. It is God's mercy. He can have mercy on whomever He wills to have mercy on so long as justice is preserved, which is what Calvary was all about.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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