User Tag List

Page 12 of 19 FirstFirst ... 29101112131415 ... LastLast
Results 166 to 180 of 279

Thread: Was the fall necessary ?

  1. #166
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    On a sea of glass mixed with fire in front of a throne.
    Posts
    10,403
    Thanks
    1,922
    Thanked 1,858 Times in 1,372 Posts

    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    530131
    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    The Fall was necessary because God from the beginning had designed His People for a Heavenly Kingdom Matt 25:34

    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,[B] Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 471

    This is a heavenly Kingdom, Spiritual 2 Tim 4:18
    The kingdom God prepared for mankind from the foundation of the world is on the earth, it is not in the sky and it is not in the spiritual realm.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  2. #167
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    On a sea of glass mixed with fire in front of a throne.
    Posts
    10,403
    Thanks
    1,922
    Thanked 1,858 Times in 1,372 Posts

    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    530131
    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    The context we're speaking of is now, what was back then before the cross is not possible now for righteousness is in Him. Things that differ are not the same.
    Righteousness is the same before and after the cross.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to genuineoriginal For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (September 11th, 2019)

  4. #168
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    19,538
    Thanks
    814
    Thanked 3,223 Times in 3,122 Posts

    Blog Entries
    19
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    49945
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    The kingdom God prepared for mankind from the foundation of the world is on the earth, it is not in the sky and it is not in the spiritual realm.
    Its a Heavenly Kingdom 2 Tim 4:18

    And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.



    Same Kingdom Abraham sought for Heb 11:16

    But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

    Heb 8:11

    And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to beloved57 For Your Post:

    Nanja (September 12th, 2019)

  6. #169
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    On a sea of glass mixed with fire in front of a throne.
    Posts
    10,403
    Thanks
    1,922
    Thanked 1,858 Times in 1,372 Posts

    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    530131
    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Its a Heavenly Kingdom
    It is a kingdom that comes down from heaven to be established on earth.

    Revelation 21:2-3
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  7. #170
    Maranatha Nanja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Motown
    Posts
    4,680
    Thanks
    2,922
    Thanked 962 Times in 929 Posts

    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    26548
    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    The Fall was necessary in that God through it had determined that the redeemed would be conformed into the image of Christ His Son Rom 8:28-30

    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


    As the redeemed bare the image of the earthy, natural, they shall bare the greater image of the Spiritual, Heavenly 1 Cor 15:49

    And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    Now Christs image has the preeminence over adams Col 1:18


    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.460

    Amen Brother ! The fall in Adam in his original posterity as Federal Head of all God's Chosen Elect Eph. 1:4, it was necessary that they all sin and bear the image of the earthy. For they were already, before the foundation of the World, predestinated to bear the Image of Christ their Head 1 Cor. 15:49, the Last Adam; the Heavenly 1 Cor. 15:49.

    So in time, because they were Quickened together with Him when He rose as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb. 13:20, they shall all bear the Image of the Heavenly when they are Spiritually Quickened in Time, Born Again John 3:3; that is be conformed to His Image so that they all may be Glorified together Forever Rom. 8:17 !
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Nanja For Your Post:

    Cntrysner (September 11th, 2019)

  9. #171
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    183
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2182
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Righteousness is the same before and after the cross.
    How so? I thought it was in Christ. Explain. It is grace or faith or what? Righteousness is by One displayed at the cross.

  10. #172
    Maranatha Nanja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Motown
    Posts
    4,680
    Thanks
    2,922
    Thanked 962 Times in 929 Posts

    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    26548
    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    The Fall was necessary because God from the beginning had designed His People for a Heavenly Kingdom Matt 25:34

    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 471

    This is a heavenly Kingdom, Spiritual 2 Tim 4:18

    And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever.

    God designed that men would enter into a heavenly kingdom by way of first baring the image of the earthy and natural, then baring the image of the Spiritual and Heavenly 1 Cor 15:49

    And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    Since Adam in his best state before the fall was merely natural and of flesh and blood, man in him wasn't fit for the heavenly kingdom merely in adam 1 Cor 15:50

    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    If man in adam had never fell into sin and remained innocent flesh and blood, they would not have been fit or qualified to enter the Heavenly Kingdom prepared for the Sheep from the foundation of the World.


    Exactly, the Fall was necessary because before then, the Heirs of the Kingdom, God's Elect, the Sheep of Christ in Adam, were merely flesh and blood and had not yet been made meet to inherit the Heavenly Eternal Kingdom which God had prepared, and which was Promised them in Christ before the foundation of the world.

    Eph. 1:4, 11

    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


    For God hath prepared for them a City Heb. 11:16, a Great Inheritance Mat. 25:34.

    The exact same City God Promised to Abraham and His Seed, the Seed of Christ Gal. 3:16, 29 !
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

  11. #173
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    9,768
    Thanks
    689
    Thanked 7,100 Times in 3,780 Posts

    Mentioned
    65 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147777
    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    If man in adam had never fell into sin and remained innocent flesh and blood, they would not have been fit or qualified to enter the Heavenly Kingdom prepared for the Sheep from the foundation of the World.
    How does anyone count this heretic as a Christian?

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (September 12th, 2019),ttruscott (September 13th, 2019)

  13. #174
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    9,768
    Thanks
    689
    Thanked 7,100 Times in 3,780 Posts

    Mentioned
    65 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147777
    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    The context we're speaking of is now, what was back then before the cross is not possible now for righteousness is in Him. Things that differ are not the same.
    Why wouldn't it be possible now?

    That is, why wouldn't it be possible for someone who has never heard the gospel but "who show(s) the work of the law written in their hearts... (Romans 2)" to be saved just as they were before?

    God made mankind with an understanding of what is right and what is wrong. Everyone knows that things like murder and adultry and stealing are wrong. Even criminals know it.

    God changed dispensations, not righteousness itself and if God, while the Law of Moses was in effect, counted gentiles as righteous based on the law written on their hearts apart from that Law, why would He do otherwise when that Law has been taken out of the way?

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

    genuineoriginal (September 12th, 2019),JudgeRightly (September 12th, 2019),Right Divider (September 12th, 2019)

  15. #175
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    On a sea of glass mixed with fire in front of a throne.
    Posts
    10,403
    Thanks
    1,922
    Thanked 1,858 Times in 1,372 Posts

    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    530131
    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    How so? I thought it was in Christ. Explain. It is grace or faith or what? Righteousness is by One displayed at the cross.
    Righteousness is of God.
    Righteousness apart from the Law comes by the same faith that Jesus Christ has and is given by God to all that believe.

    Romans 3:21-23
    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  16. #176
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    19,538
    Thanks
    814
    Thanked 3,223 Times in 3,122 Posts

    Blog Entries
    19
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    49945
    The Fall of man was necessary to fulfill the fact that man originally was made in the image and likeness of God, which image is ultimately conformity to Christ, who is the Ultimate Image and Likeness to God Col 1:15

    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    How can man be in the image of God without conformity to Christ ?
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  17. #177
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    183
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2182
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Righteousness is of God.
    Righteousness apart from the Law comes by the same faith that Jesus Christ has and is given by God to all that believe.

    Romans 3:21-23
    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    Yes, righteousness is of God but it changed when Christ gave His life at the cross to remove the law.

    One righteousness was under the law and God gave it to men by grace through their faith.

    Now righteousness is in Christ, this righteousness belongs to Christ not men. It is His righteousness that He owns by His faith in His Father God, this righteousness does not come by man's faith.

    There is no difference because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

    But thank God through our Lord Jesus we can choose Christ and escape sin by His righteousness.

  18. #178
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    19,538
    Thanks
    814
    Thanked 3,223 Times in 3,122 Posts

    Blog Entries
    19
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    49945
    The Fall was necessary in order to bring the children of God to Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Gal 3:26

    For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.​497
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  19. #179
    Old Timer
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    464
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 70 Times in 57 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    15901
    Each step is necessary.

    God's ultimate plan (or part of it):
    - to build a new eternity we call Heaven (or more precisely the New Heaven and New Earth)

    LAW:
    - is necessary to identify who should be qualified to enter Heaven.
    Everyone (angels and humans alike) needs to pass a final judgment in order to enter Heaven. The angels were created first and will be given mass amount of time for their freewill (lesser than humans') to divide, as freewill will inevitably signify division.

    The division process has nothing to do with God's foreknowledge. It's to facilitate an open and final judgment. Even though God knows before hand who will be saved in the end, this process is still needed to be openly witnessed by other angels and whoever chosen to be the witnesses.

    Eden:
    Eden is necessary as humans are less intelligent but given more degree of freewill, especially under the circumstance that the much more intelligent angels are allowed to influence. Actually a 100% fall is expected under the circumstance. LAW thus cannot effectively identify and qualify humans (as 100% of them will fall under the direct influence of the much more intelligent fallen angels including Satan itself).

    Earth:
    Earth is thus necessary acting as the place for human division, under the intangible influence from both God and Satan.

    Period before Noah:
    This period is necessary to further testify that the establishment of earth will cause a 100% fall of humans if LAW is the only measurement in the judgment.

    Covenant:
    Since LAW means (proven) 100% fall of humans, humans if savable have to rely on something else to be saved/judged/qualified. A covenant is thus in place. The primary purpose of a covenant is to serve as an open standard to identify the righteous/saved from the wicked/unsaved.

    Grace:
    A covenant is a mixture of laws and Grace in various forms. The final covenant is thus with Grace maximized and law minimized (which is the New Covenant).

    Jesus:
    Jesus is thus necessary, as a covenant cannot be justified above LAW without Jesus's self sacrifice.

    Soul:
    Soul is necessary as along with the decay of a human physical body, no other identification can be used to facilitate an openly witnessed judgment. Only God knows who is who. A soul (like angels' body) is a permanent ID for a human to be openly witnessed in a realm of eternity. By design it's immortal and eternal.

    Judgment:
    Judgment is necessary for angels to be qualified by LAW, and humans to be qualified by covenants.

    Hell:
    Hell is necessary to accommodate those immortal souls failed to pass the final judgment. God is the God of the living, not the dead. For these souls to be legitimately relieved in one way or another, Jesus/God needs to make another sacrifice, as a matter of justification (this time above both LAW and covenants). This second crucifixion of Christ won't happen. That's why it's said that God is the God of the living but not the dead.

  20. #180
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    On a sea of glass mixed with fire in front of a throne.
    Posts
    10,403
    Thanks
    1,922
    Thanked 1,858 Times in 1,372 Posts

    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    530131
    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    Yes, righteousness is of God but it changed when Christ gave His life at the cross
    No, righteousness did not change when Christ gave His life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    Christ gave His life at the cross to remove the law.
    No, Christ did not give His life to remove the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    this righteousness does not come by man's faith.
    Actually, it does, whenever a man's faith follows the same pattern as the faith of Christ.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us