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Thread: Was the fall necessary ?

  1. #196
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    That is correct. Humans are born either vessels of mercy Rom. 9:23, or vessels of wrath Rom. 9:22.
    Then why did God require life for life punishments for those who, in the process of committing a crime, killed a baby that was in the womb?

  2. #197
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    How is his statement heretical, I don't care if he understands your systematic terminology. I will let, until I know more, but since you condemned him, feel free to explain your condemnation. I know we are appointed to judge but you better judge righteously for fear of judgement and that should be enough for you to stop you snide remarks.
    Read that idiotic statement that I quoted and then think it through.

    According to blasphemy 57, if man hadn't fallen and was innocent he wouldn't have been fit to enter Heaven. So Adam and all of mankind in him was doomed to Hell even before the fall! So Jesus would have had to die even if the fall had never happened! In what universe would that be just?

    But worse than that, blasphemy 57's doctrine is that the whole process REQUIRED sin! That God didn't just plan for the possibility of sin but that evil was a requisit ingredient needed to make it work at all!

    If that isn't blasphemy then the word is meaningless!


    blashphemy57 really does actually believe that God is unjust. He won't state it in those terms because he has altered the meaning of the word "justice" (along with several other easy to understand English words) to suit his doctrine but he can hardly open his mouth without proclaiming it. His god bares almost no resemblance to the God of the bible. He really doesn't quite care what the bible actually says or teaches. His doctrine isn't based on the bible but rather he simply cloaks his pagan Greek philosophical beliefs with bible verses and then calls it Christianity.

    It is not impossible that he believes just barely enough of the gospel to have gotten saved but I very much doubt it. He has no concept at all of right and wrong. How then could he have repented? Indeed, he doesn't even believe that he did repent. He believes that God had him saved long before time started and that every thought, word or deed that he has ever performed was flawlessly and meticulously predetermined and made to happen by the unjust, arbitrary and capricious god that he worships. So his actions aren't his own, even in his own mind! No, it is far safer to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume him to be the unsaved heretic that his words portray him to be.

    Clete
    Last edited by Clete; September 14th, 2019 at 03:02 PM.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  4. #198
    Over 750 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    According to the scriptures, God from Everlasting had decreed some to be Vessels of Mercy made in His Image and Likeness Rom. 9:23.
    You have not proven that prepared beforehand refers to from everlasting....and it probably does not but only from the foundation of the world, ie after the Satanic fall.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  5. #199
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    I read post on this forum and all I read, well most, is people trying to exalt themselves above another. Yes, it's about who is best at demeaning the other. It is some kind of sickness and I find myself trying to do the same in return even though I don't like it. We should, I think, be here to exalt Christ but our doctrines give us license to condemn not exalt each other in Christ. Do any others here agree?
    If I had a dime for every time I've read a post saying something like this just before the excuse themselves from the forum, I'd be rich.

    If you have/had me on ignore because I'm too harsh to people who blaspheme God with their heretical nonsense, then I'd like very much to stay on that ignore list. I'll wear it as a badge of honor. I'm not the least bit interested in building such people up or in any other way being nice to them.


    How do we persaud if need be? Is it by condemnation, nay, by what then? I say it is preach Christ and Him crucified and the results of it with compassion. All things are in Christ and I mean all by any other name. Don't condemn but beacon like a light and be prepare for condemnation without reciprocation and preach the gospel of Christ as it is written.
    So not even 200 posts into your TOL career and you want to judge people because they don't do things the way you would.

    I've been on this forum for decades. Yes, literally decades. I've seen it all and I've heard it all. These people that you're so eager to be nice to either hate the God you worship or are not here to debate anything. You literally haven't any idea what you're even talking about and what's more, no one cares what your opinion about their behavior is anyway.

    If you don't like the forum, leave and keep your self righteous judments to yourself.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  7. #200
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Where is the singular pronoun in that passage? There isn't one! He is talking about groups, thus the plural pronouns throughout the passage.
    Where is a singular pronoun at 1 Corinthians 12:13? So are you saying that believers were baptized by one Spirit into the Body of Christ as a group?:

    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
    (1 Cor.12:13).

  8. #201
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Where is a singular pronoun at 1 Corinthians 12:13? So are you saying that believers were baptized by one Spirit into the Body of Christ as a group?:

    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
    (1 Cor.12:13).
    Why do you ask questions you know that answer to?

    I've had you on ignore for wmonths not because I think you're a heretic or stupid but because you just don't seem to care to have real discussions. Why would you ask that question? I just got through answering that question in the sentence that you are quoting!

    Is it really that hard to follow the discussion?

    No! You just can't possibly be that stupid!

    So, you tell me how would anyone be able to proceed? After that whole post that I probably spent something close to an hour typing up, you're response is to ask a question that can't possibly move the discussion forward. The best I could do is to repeat myself and maybe use fewer words and increase the font size as though I were talking to a child. If this sort of thing wasn't what landed you on my ignore list in the first place, I'd be tempted to think that you did such things because you knew I would likely not respond to it. It comes off as your way of always getting in the last word or something.


    I don't know and really I don't actually care. Regardless of why you do the silly things you do, I've decided to take you off ignore - for now. In fact, I'm taking most of the people on that list off of it. I looked at the list and can't remember who most of them even are and so it's time to reset and see who deserves to remain on the list and who doesn't. If you want to actually discuss these issues then start by giving me something of substance in response to post #83.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  10. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    If man in adam had never fell into sin and remained innocent flesh and blood, they would not have been fit or qualified to enter the Heavenly Kingdom prepared for the Sheep from the foundation of the World.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    We know from scripture that Adam was a Son of God in the beginning Luke 3:38....
    Do I hear disagreement in the Calvinist echo chamber?

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  12. #203
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Are babies made in God's image and likeness?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    A person's age has nothing to do with it.

    According to the scriptures, God from Everlasting had decreed some to be Vessels of Mercy made in His Image and Likeness Rom. 9:23.

    And yet others to be vessels of wrath fitted for destruction Rom. 9:22.


    Prov. 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.


    Job 23:13-14

    13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. 14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.


    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    So babies are not made in God's image, correct?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    Did you just omit, that we, meaning all men created are created in His image, for your sake of argument?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    All the Elect of God exclusively are made in God's Image.


    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    So some babies are not made in God's image?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    That is correct. Humans are born either vessels of mercy Rom. 9:23, or vessels of wrath Rom. 9:22.


    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Then why did God require life for life punishments for those who, in the process of committing a crime, killed a baby that was in the womb?


    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Do I hear disagreement in the Calvinist echo chamber?
    It's amazing how they ramble on and on and don't even bother to think of the natural consequences of what they say.

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  14. #204
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    It's amazing how they ramble on and on and don't even bother to think of the natural consequences of what they say.
    I am honestly convinced that it is a real delusion. As in a real mental disorder kind of delusion.

    The same sort of thing makes people think Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is brilliant when in fact she is perhaps that most delusionally idiotic member that the House of Representatives has ever had.
    Michael Savage used to say that liberalism is a mental disorder. He was right! - That is to say that he was literally correct.

    I think the same is true of a lot of Calvinists. I used to think it was only a very few of the most rabid Calvinists until I did that "Calvin Said This..." thread. I started that thread expecting several Calvinists to distance themselves from those quotes and was genuinely surprised when none of them did. In fact, not only did they not distance themselves, they openly embarrassed what is obviously heresy if not outright blasphemy to anyone with a mind that still works.

    Now, having said that, I should clarify and say that it isn't the sort of mental disorder that gives them any excuse. I'm not saying that they are mentally retarded in some physiological or congenital sense. No, it's far worse than that! It's a mental disorder that they've chosen to have. That's right, Calvinist have CHOSEN, by their own free will, to break their minds.

    Understanding the broken nature of their mind is the only way one can have any exchange with them without driving yourself crazy. Otherwise, what you try to do is to make sense of what they are saying. You can't make any sense out of what they are saying because...well...because you're not crazy! You might as well try to make sense out of Scientology or the Heaven's Gate UFO Cult.

    Unfortunately, this also means that real debate with them is all but impossible. blasphemy57 doesn't even try to debate anything and hasn't for years, in fact he actively refuses to answer direct questions or to engage in any actual debate whatsoever. He just posts bald assertions as though they were facts and let's them stand without comment or discussion. The only people he responds to at all are sycophants who post things he already agrees with and even then it's just to acknowledge agreement but not to substantively discuss anything. One wonders how he keeps from getting banned, frankly.

    Not the blasphy57 is alone in that tactic. It is the way pretty much all Calvinists "debate". Read Bob's Battle Royale debate with Dr. Samuel Lamerson. It doesn't take long for Dr. Lamerson to stop responding to Bob and simply start preaching Calvinism as though that counted as debating. Bob has a video where he debates a Calvinist where something similar happens. It's their only real option. They, like political liberals, cannot stand in the arena of ideas. They cannot win if their ideas are exposed to the bright light of rational thought. (John 1:4-5)

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  16. #205
    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Bob has a video where he debates a Calvinist where something similar happens. It's their only real option. They, like political liberals, cannot stand in the arena of ideas. They cannot win if their ideas are exposed to the bright light of rational thought. (John 1:4-5)
    Clete
    Calvinists do not hold to humanistic "ideas" but to Sola Scriptura. TRUTH as revealed by the author of TRUTH; God Himself, who is the Word who came in the flesh.

    So you are not insulting any particular Calvinist by considering their witness as being craziness; nor do you denigrate Calvinists at large by claiming they are irrational.

    All you achieve in your opposition, proves only to be blasphemy against God and the Person of Jesus Christ. Your declarations that biblical truths are irrational is wicked.

    What you really reveal is that your mind and heart are dark and unbelieving and full of bad ideas of your own, which is not rational in the least, for you are merely a fallen creature who is guilty of changing TRUTH into a new and false belief system.

    Was the fall necessary?

    All that God has ordained must necessarily come to pass. Such is the definition of Absolute Sovereignty, which is exactly what you actually oppose before the very face of God.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    If I had a dime for every time I've read a post saying something like this just before the excuse themselves from the forum, I'd be rich.
    Well, I did not excuse myself from the forum. I said "My rant is over for now, hope I get to continue on this forum". Man you got a hard head and to tell the truth, I like it.

    If you have/had me on ignore because I'm too harsh to people who blaspheme God with their heretical nonsense, then I'd like very much to stay on that ignore list. I'll wear it as a badge of honor. I'm not the least bit interested in building such people up or in any other way being nice to them.
    I said I put you on ignore to test you reaction to it. Sorry, I was just messing with you.


    So not even 200 posts into your TOL career and you want to judge people because they don't do things the way you would.
    Thanks, on the, I have/had in your mind a career here because I look forward to.. I have.

    Aren't we appointed to judge? By judgement we can get to know each other even without crediting. We can't judge as Christ did.

    I've been on this forum for decades. Yes, literally decades. I've seen it all and I've heard it all. These people that you're so eager to be nice to either hate the God you worship or are not here to debate anything. You literally haven't any idea what you're even talking about and what's more, no one cares what your opinion about their behavior is anyway.
    That is a mouthful and gives me pause with a touch of Freudian perspective. You have more experience than I by far, and I fully accept that fact. Maybe at first you had more compassion. Sorry, I didn't have the opportunity to witness it.
    I reviewed how Christ condemned unbelievers and he could because he knew their hearts but I don't have that immediate ability, maybe it will come in time with your assistance. It will take time for me to access individual situations on this forum because maybe compassion wasn't show at first causing them to be more defensive of their doctrine whereby pushing them away, original intent to win them over could be lost.
    Even the elect can be deceived and by that I mean they may not have fully understood what they are defending.

    Concerning Christ and how we should address (it needs refining!):

    1)Meet and greet
    2)Beckon with scripture and compassion at great length
    3)Condemn with scripture with compassion
    4}Condemn with scripture while receiving personal condemnation without reciprocation
    5)Condemn with scripture and more prayer
    6)Condemn with scripture without reference to it is not allowed
    7)God will take over in truth

    If you don't like the forum, leave and keep your self righteous judgements to yourself.
    I will not take that as a personal attack even though you probably meant it that way..

    As you pointed out, you have been here for decades therefore I submit to your judgement . I accept my mistake and ask for your forgiveness and give you the golden triangle. I will catch up in time and will admit that my process of one on one may not be appropriate in an open forum but can still be possible. If I am allowed to catch up to you I could be helpful because I can condemn with the best.

    I do judge myself as self righteous believe me and still count you as a friend in Christ and someone that I can enjoy because you point out my flaws.

  18. #207
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I've had you on ignore for wmonths not because I think you're a heretic or stupid but because you just don't seem to care to have real discussions.
    It is you who cares nothing about a real discussion, not me. You continue to think that just because a singluar pronoun is not used that the reference must be in regard to many people and it couldn't possibly be in reference to a single person.

    All you do is run and hide from the points which I raise and pretend that you actually have an answer.

  19. #208
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Oh boy! Nang couldn't resist coming to b57's rescue any longer!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Calvinists do not hold to humanistic "ideas" but to Sola Scriptura.
    Really?

    Where in the bible is the doctrine of sola scriptura taught?

    How fun is it to blow up a whole Calvinist doctrine in one sentence?!!

    TRUTH as revealed by the author of TRUTH; God Himself, who is the Word who came in the flesh.
    Sounds nice, doesn't it?

    Too bad for you that the truth is not self-contradictory. If what you believed were true you wouldn't have to redefine common words to fit your doctrine, you wouldn't believe that an arbitrary god is just, you wouldn't believe that an immutable god became a man and died.

    So you are not insulting any particular Calvinist by considering their witness as being craziness; nor do you denigrate Calvinists at large by claiming they are irrational.
    It isn't my opinion nor am I making bald claims. I have proven it over and over and over again in a hundred different ways, not the least of which was in this very thread where b57 openly stated that if mankind had not fallen in Adam and was innocent they would not be fit for the kingdom of his non-existent god.

    All you achieve in your opposition, proves only to be blasphemy against God and the Person of Jesus Christ.
    The difference between you saying it and mine is that I engage the debate and prove my case. You're a fool who couldn't argue herself out of a paper bag if her life depended on it.

    Your declarations that biblical truths are irrational is wicked.
    And you are an intentional and habitual liar. I called Calvinism and the morons who believe it irrational, not biblical truths. The fact that you can even insinuate that they are the same thing is only more evidence of your delusional state of mind.

    What you really reveal is that your mind and heart are dark and unbelieving and full of bad ideas of your own, which is not rational in the least, for you are merely a fallen creature who is guilty of changing TRUTH into a new and false belief system.
    Saying it doesn't make is so, Nang!

    I've defeated you in every debate you've ever engaged me in to the point of driving you nearly insane with hatred. I crushed your husband to powder on another forum or else you'd not even be here.

    Was the fall necessary?

    All that God has ordained must necessarily come to pass. Such is the definition of Absolute Sovereignty, which is exactly what you actually oppose before the very face of God.
    Again, your redefinition of common English words cause this comment to be a lie and I believe it to be an intentional one.

    There is no authority higher than God and if anyone else has authority it is because God has delegated it He and has the absolute right to recall that authority without notice. This is what it actually means to be sovereign. Calvinists have changed the meaning of the word to mean the equivalent of "control freak" which I reject without hesitation. God is just! God is righteous! He is not the author of sin. He flat out did NOT "ordain" (i.e. infallibly predestine) Adam's fall - period. Even suggesting that He did is blasphemy of the highest order, not to mention in direct conflict with scripture and just plain old fashion common sense and reason.

    Clete
    Last edited by Clete; September 16th, 2019 at 06:16 AM.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Calvinists do not hold to humanistic "ideas" but to Sola Scriptura. TRUTH as revealed by the author of TRUTH; God Himself, who is the Word who came in the flesh.

    So you are not insulting any particular Calvinist by considering their witness as being craziness; nor do you denigrate Calvinists at large by claiming they are irrational.

    All you achieve in your opposition, proves only to be blasphemy against God and the Person of Jesus Christ. Your declarations that biblical truths are irrational is wicked.

    What you really reveal is that your mind and heart are dark and unbelieving and full of bad ideas of your own, which is not rational in the least, for you are merely a fallen creature who is guilty of changing TRUTH into a new and false belief system.

    Was the fall necessary?

    All that God has ordained must necessarily come to pass. Such is the definition of Absolute Sovereignty, which is exactly what you actually oppose before the very face of God.
    I may have misunderstood you but here's the question...

    How does man's, free choice / not will, rob God of his attributes?

  22. #210
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    It is you who cares nothing about a real discussion, not me. You continue to think that just because a singluar pronoun is not used that the reference must be in regard to many people and it couldn't possibly be in reference to a single person.

    All you do is run and hide from the points which I raise and pretend that you actually have an answer.
    Okay, you want to be ignored then.

    Fine by me!


    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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