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Thread: Hades / The Grave

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    Post Hades / The Grave

    .
    The comments and questions herein are relative to Luke 16:19-31.

    How is it that the rich man and Abraham were able to see from their own grave into each other's grave? Do dead people have X-ray vision? Do they have any vision at all let alone X-ray?

    Do dead people actually have the ability to communicate with other dead people? You'd think that dead people would be deaf and mute seeing as how they're deceased and no longer sentient.

    What is the nature of the barrier that existed between Abraham's grave and the rich man's grave? The story suggests dead people could, and would, visit one another's graves were it not for a barrier separating them.

    From whence did the rich man assume that Lazarus could fetch water? Was Lazarus' grave adjacent to an aquifer or some such?

    The story suggests that Abraham and Lazarus shared the same grave, i.e. Lazarus' corpse was laid to rest with Abraham's corpse.

    The story tells that Lazarus' pall bearers were angels. Is that common, or was Lazarus' funeral a special event?
    _

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeberHome View Post
    .
    The comments and questions herein are relative to Luke 16:19-31.

    How is it that the rich man and Abraham were able to see from their own grave into each other's grave? Do dead people have X-ray vision? Do they have any vision at all let alone X-ray?

    spirits in the place of the dead

    Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
    Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

    Do dead people actually have the ability to communicate with other dead people? You'd think that dead people would be deaf and mute seeing as how they're deceased and no longer sentient.
    Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
    Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"


    What is the nature of the barrier that existed between Abraham's grave and the rich man's grave? The story suggests dead people could, and would, visit one another's graves were it not for a barrier separating them.
    no

    Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'


    The story suggests that Abraham and Lazarus shared the same grave, i.e. Lazarus' corpse was laid to rest with Abraham's corpse.
    no,
    their souls went to the same place

    Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
    Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

    The story tells that Lazarus pall bearers were angels. Is that common, or was Lazarus' funeral a special event?


    no , Lazarus soul was carried to Abraham's side

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    Post Re: Hades / The Grave

    .
    For some time now, I've been curious from whence the Bible obtained that story in Luke 16:19-31. It's commonly attributed to Jesus, but I've so far been unable to locate any textual evidence proving beyond a shadow of sensible doubt, or even suggesting, that he actually taught it.

    That story seems to me out of place; sort of a footnote plopped into the midst of Luke's gospel like an afterthought.
    _

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeberHome View Post
    .
    For some time now, I've been curious from whence the Bible obtained that story in Luke 16:19-31. It's commonly attributed to Jesus, but I've so far been unable to locate any textual evidence proving beyond a shadow of sensible doubt, or even suggesting, that he actually taught it.

    That story seems to me out of place; sort of a footnote plopped into the midst of Luke's gospel like an afterthought.
    Jesus told us about people like you who will not believe there is a hell ,
    nothing will convince you.
    not even one rising from the dead telling you there is a hell.

    Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'
    ...
    Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

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    Post Re: Hades / The Grave

    .
    Luke 16:23-25 . . He cried out and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.

    The Greek word for "flame" is phlox (flox) which basically means a blaze.

    Well; apparently the rich man wasn't engulfed in the blaze. I assume so because his view wasn't obscured to the point wherein conditions prevented him from seeing clearly enough to spy Abraham and Lazarus at some distance. (There may in fact have been other people in the area too but the Bible left them out of the story; likely because they're not relevant.)

    Did the rich man actually think that Lazarus would agree to walk thru fire to bring him water? That part of the story is very curious.

    The blaze is curious too. Was it not so hot that moisture on a wet fingertip could survive evaporation long enough for Lazarus to reach the man and apply it to his tongue?

    Why did the rich man request such a small amount of water? Why not a mug, or better yet; a whole bucket?
    _

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    Post Re: Hades / The Grave

    .
    The story told in Luke 16:9-31 quotes Abraham a number of times. Well, if Abraham didn't actually say the words that he's quoted as saying; then Luke reported fake news, i.e. we would have good reason to suspect that Luke was a man of questionable integrity who couldn't be trusted to tell the truth about people; and nobody's reputation, not even a sacred patriarch's reputation, was safe in his hands.
    _

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeberHome View Post
    .
    The story told in Luke 16:9-31 quotes Abraham a number of times. Well, if Abraham didn't actually say the words that he's quoted as saying; then Luke reported fake news, i.e. we would have good reason to suspect that Luke was a man of questionable integrity who couldn't be trusted to tell the truth about people; and nobody's reputation, not even a sacred patriarch's reputation, was safe in his hands.
    _
    So, if Luke reported on a story that was commonly told in his day, and Jesus told the story to illustrate a point, Luke was lying if the story wasn't true? That's a huge stretch.

    If you were to ask me about this, the context of the story tells us Jesus purpose in telling the story and the point He was making. That is always the point of Jesus' stories and parables. He often used what were then well-known events to illustrate the truths He happened to be teaching at the time.

    Look at the verses just preceding the parable of the rich man and Abraham. Then look at Jesus' summation of the parable at the very end of the chapter. Is that summation of Jesus' thoughts have anything to do with hell? Or does it have to do with those who refuse to believe in Him during their life times? Also identify those to whom it was told. Among his audience were the scribes and Pharisees.

    Jesus summation was this:
    Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
    Did the scribes and Pharisees believe in Jesus after the resurrection of Lazarus? Did they believe in Jesus after He was resurrected from the dead? Jesus told the Pharisees in John 5 that they didn't believe Moses even though they claimed to be believers in Moses and because of that they couldn't believe in Him then. He tells them the same thing here. If they won't listen to scripture, they will not believe. See the parallels?
    “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

    “One and God make a majority.”
    ― Frederick Douglass

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    Post Re: Hades / The Grave

    .
    Luke 16:19-31 is commonly alleged to be a parable; which of course implies that the story is fiction; and some would even say fantasy. But the parable theory has a fatal flaw. Abraham is not a fictional character: he's a real-life man; the father of the Hebrew people, held in very high esteem by at least three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. And he's also the friend of God (Isa 41:8). I simply cannot believe that Jesus Christ-- a man famous among normal Christians for his honesty and integrity --would say something untrue about a famous real-life man; especially about one of his Father's buddies.

    And on top of that, the story quotes Abraham a number of times. Well; if the story is fiction, then Jesus Christ is on record testifying that Abraham said things that he didn't really say; which is a clear violation of the commandment that prohibits bearing false witness.
    _
    Last edited by WeberHome; August 29th, 2019 at 09:14 AM.

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    Post Re: Hades / The Grave

    .
    The passage below is often used as a proof text that Jesus' teachings were all presented in parable form.

    Matt 13:34 . . Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

    However, that passage is only saying that whenever Christ spoke to crowds, he included at least one parable. To assume he taught only in parable form is a really, really big error.

    FYI: Not all of Christ's stories are clearly identified as parables. Watch out for that.
    _

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    Post Re: Hades / The Grave

    .
    Modern evangelists like Billy Graham and Luis Palau generally compose their own sermons and pick their own topics. Jesus did neither; he was micromanaged by a higher power.

    John 8:26 . .He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.

    John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me.

    John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    . John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

    Heb 1:2 . . In these last days, God has spoken to us by His son.

    So then, all the parables-- those clearly identified as such, and those assumed as such --originated with God; who has thousands upon many thousands of years under His belt observing His creation. I seriously doubt that God has to resort to spinning yarns in order to get His points across seeing as how He has at His disposal an immense archive of eye-witness experiences to draw upon and put to use.

    There's yet another issue to consider-- God cannot lie. (Titus 1:2)

    I strongly urge those insisting that Luke 16:9-31 is a yarn to use what time they have remaining in this life to begin preparing themselves for the worst when they pass on because it's fatal to disbelieve God's eye-witness reports.

    John 3:31-36 . .He who comes from heaven is above all; and what he has seen and heard, that he testifies. For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
    _

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    Post Re: Hades / The Grave

    .
    Through me; the way to the eternal city.
    Through me; the way to eternal sadness.
    Through me; the way to lost people.

    Justice moved my supreme maker:
    I was shaped by divine power,
    By highest wisdom, and by primal love.

    Before me, nothing was created
    That is not eternal: and eternally I endure.
    Abandon all hope, you that enter here.
    (The Divine Comedy, Dante Alighieri, Inferno: canto 3, v.1-9)

    Dante's poetic epic is called a comedy because it has a happy ending as opposed to a tragedy; at least for Dante anyway. The souls he and Virgil pass along the way through the Inferno portion of Dante's odyssey will never, nor anon, have a happy ending; hence the sign above the entrance to his netherworld: "Abandon all hope, you that enter here."

    Webster's defines "despair' as: to no longer have any hope or belief that a situation will improve or change. Down in the Inferno section of Dante's concept, despair is a way of life.

    One of the hardest concepts to get across is the despair that people in hell must feel in knowing that their situation is a sealed fate with no hope of relief. Dante's odyssey, though of course fiction, is useful for that purpose; especially when it's accompanied by illustrations painted by Gustave Doré.

    Jesus warned people that they'd be better off facing eternity with their hands and their feet amputated, and their eyes gouged out, then to end up in a hell he called geena; a much worse place than haides. So in my estimation, Dante's descriptions, and Gustave's paintings, though disturbing enough in themselves, aren't sufficient to impress just how unfortunate the ultimate hell really is.
    _

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    Post Re: Hades / The Grave

    .
    Many years ago-- when I was a young single guy in his early twenties, living alone in a cheap rental --as I was listening to a radio preacher talk about hell, something in my mind took over; and I had the strangest sensation of falling off the earth into an abyss and nobody cared, nor did anybody miss me, nor did my disappearance cause any alarm nor make any difference.

    The freeways remained busy with frustrated drivers and honking horns, people still got up to go to work, shoppers crowded the supermarkets and department stores, kids caught their buses to school, birds kept right on chirping, grass kept on growing, ocean waves went on rolling onto the beach, trains kept running, airlines kept flying, clouds moved across the sky; and all that.

    My absence changed nothing nor disturbed anyone nor anything. The world was utterly indifferent; it kept right on turning, clocks went on ticking; and nature and man went right on with their business as usual without the slightest hiccup. At that moment I realized just how alone and how obscure people must feel when they exhale their final breath and cross over to the other side.

    Back in March of 2015, Andrew Getty, an heir to J. Paul Getty's oil fortune, died at the age of 47. In life, Andrew had many friends. You know how many accompanied him on his journey across the river Styx? Nary a one.

    You gotta walk that lonesome valley,
    You gotta walk it by yourself,
    Nobody here can walk it for you,
    You gotta walk it by yourself.
    (Woody Guthrie)
    _

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    Post

    .
    People have been filtering into perdition not only since the time of Christ, but since before the Step Pyramid of Djoser, and even before the Flood. I won't speculate how many years that might be, but h.sapiens is thought by some to have achieved full behavioral modernity something like 50,000 years ago. (There's new findings suggesting that human existence goes as far back as 150-300,000 years) Anyway; whether that extends clear on back to Adam and Eve I have no clue; but just think: if it does, then Cain and others from his era have been down in the netherworld all this time.

    It's difficult for the human mind to appreciate 50,000 years let alone 300,000. I've been on the Earth for just 75, and I've noticed that my childhood is so far in the past to me now as to seem more like a fantasy than a memory. But you know; when you're talking about eternity, 50,000 years isn't even a drop in the bucket. If it were a drop in the bucket, it would be a bucket with no bottom; which is roughly akin to the futility of a gnat attempting to drink up the Atlantic ocean.

    But just think: time stands still in hell: it's for the now; it's an existence. People who arrived there yesterday didn't begin doing time in jail like Martha Stewart expecting to get out some day; nor is perdition a temporary tour of duty like shipping out to Afghanistan. No, people in hell are in it as perpetual residents; they're in a rut.

    They go year, after year, after year, after year, with no relief from the discomfort: no vacations, no recreation, no reading materials, and no hobbies-- there's absolutely nothing to do but reminisce. The mental atrophy, and the boredom that must result from that kind of mindless existence is beyond estimation.

    In life, everybody enjoys God's blessings; even the really bad people. We're all breathing fresh air, basking in sunshine, drinking cool water, savoring tasty foods, listening to birds chirp, star gazing at night, throwing snow balls at each other in winter, river rafting, fishing, snow skiing, tending gardens, pruning shrubs, greeting friends during the holidays, spending days with grandkids; and all that sort of thing. In the Bible's hell, there are no blessings of any kind at all: only perpetual sadness, vexation, despair, and want.

    In hell's unruly society; it's reasonable to expect quarrels, bickering, hard feelings, vendettas, rivalry, selfishness, insensitivity, irritation, aggravation, and ugly words exchanged between people. Is there really any good reason to be courteous and/or respect your fellow man's human rights in the Bible's hell; or to be kind, forgiving, affable, genial, courteous, cordial, charitable, altruistic, tolerant, generous, and patient? I was once discussing the netherworld with a co-worker and he remarked: "Hell won't be so bad; I'll have plenty of friends down there". Yes, he probably will have lots of friends in hell; but I really don't think he should count on them being friendly.

    And the din: think of the volume of noise down there with all the wailing and sobbing, and the moaning, shrieking, yelping, howling, gnashing teeth, and the constant complaining. I can only imagine how annoying it must be in hell with its thousands and millions of people making all that kind of racket.

    But just imagine bringing with you a craving for tobacco with none available. Or longing for a cocktail with no liquor in sight. A desire for music, with no way to produce it. A skill for writing, with no pen and paper. Yearning for a walk out in nature, with no world to do it in.

    People in hell will never again smell a sea breeze, sit in the shade of a tree, take deep breaths of mountain-fresh air, play at sports, hear a bird chirp, see a sunset, watch a lunar eclipse, jog in the park, strum a guitar, enjoy a Christmas dinner with loved ones; nor make little pigs of themselves gobbling barbecued spare ribs and corn on the 4th of July.

    Sports and recreation are gone: no more World Series, no more Super Bowl, no more Olympics, no more Las Vegas, no more Indian casinos, no more lottery, no more Lego World, no more Sea World, no more NASCAR, no more golf, no more surfing, et al.

    No baths, no showers, no sleep, no TV, no radio, no iPods, no computers, no Twitter, no texting, no FaceBook, no Instagram, no YouTube, no MySpace, no internet, no clean sheets, no breakfast, no lunch, and no dinner. No snacks, no gum, no candy, no flowers, no parks, no rivers, no snow, no seasons, no picnics, no malls, no fast food, no trades, no careers, no trendy fashions, no jewelry, no cosmetics, no concerts, no operas, and no hobbies; absolutely nothing of this world that brings people the pleasures and the satisfactions of just being alive.
    _

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    Post Re: Hades / The Grave

    .
    Abraham replied: "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things" (Luke 16:25)

    I should think that one of the negative aspects of hell is memory. How people down there retain their memories sans the brain cells they left behind with their corpse, I don't know; but they do, just as the rich man in that story is able to experience thirst sans a flesh and blood tongue.

    The older one gets, the more memories they accumulate, and many of those memories haunt us with terrible regret. However, people in hell not only have to cope with their bad memories, but also the good ones too, and I should think it's remembering the good things they enjoyed in life that makes their situation only worse in the heat.

    If everybody was born and raised in hell; and never once ventured out; that would be the only life they've ever known, so they wouldn't have a clue what it's like to really live. For them the old maxim "Ignorance is bliss" would certainly hold true.
    _

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    Post Re: Hades / The Grave

    .
    Luke 16:27-30 . . I beg you, Father, that you send Lazarus to my father's house-- for I have five brothers --that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.

    You know what can be even worse than going to hell? Your own children following you there: and they trusted you.

    Here's a sort of cute story I heard once. I don't know if it's true but I guess it's plausible.

    A farmer went out to the barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to sneak a pull from his liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he heard something behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little boy coming towards him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever managed to find his way out to the barn in the dark. His son replied: It was easy; I walked in your footsteps.

    One can only imagine the anguish that parents in the netherworld must feel knowing that they inadvertently raised their children in an ideology that led them down the road to hell and all the while sincerely believing themselves doing the right thing. For some families, the only thing they have to look forward to in the afterlife is a sad reunion in fire and despair.
    _

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