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Thread: Socialism in action

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    TOL Subscriber George Affleck's Avatar
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    It is common to believe that Nazi Germany was a form of capitalism, which is what the communists and marxists have claimed because they did not want to be associated with Hitler. The basis for this was the fact that most industries in Nazi Germany appeared to be left in private hands.


    But private ownership of the means of production existed in name only under the Nazis and the actual substance of ownership resided in the German government. It was the German government and not private owners that exercised all of the actual powers of ownership. The state decided what was to be produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it was to be sold, as well as what prices would be charged and the salaries that would be paid. They also decided what profit the private owners would receive.

    This was de facto government ownership adhering to the basic collectivist principles of the Nazis that the common good comes before the private good and the individual exists as a means to the ends of the State. This is nothing less than full-blown socialism.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

    It is true that Trump does not fit modern Republican principles, but that is because modern Republican principles have strayed far from conservatism. genuineoriginal

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    It is common to believe that Nazi Germany was a form of capitalism, which is what the communists and marxists have claimed because they did not want to be associated with Hitler. The basis for this was the fact that most industries in Nazi Germany appeared to be left in private hands.


    But private ownership of the means of production existed in name only under the Nazis and the actual substance of ownership resided in the German government. It was the German government and not private owners that exercised all of the actual powers of ownership. The state decided what was to be produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it was to be sold, as well as what prices would be charged and the salaries that would be paid. They also decided what profit the private owners would receive.

    This was de facto government ownership adhering to the basic collectivist principles of the Nazis that the common good comes before the private good and the individual exists as a means to the ends of the State. This is nothing less than full-blown socialism.
    To be fair, FDR did something similar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    To be fair, FDR did something similar
    Absolutely. The democrats ruled the government from 1933 to 1953.
    Why would they not push through many socialist programs.
    That time period is when Americans learned about the free lunch.

    This is not to say that, for the time, some policies were not without an upside. They did cure some of what was ailing America and later aided in the war effort.
    But the democratic socialists of today are standing on the shoulders of those who set the bar back then and they are now coming up with new ideas to deepen the socialist grip on the U.S. They want the noose to get tighter. Trump wants to loosen it and he's got the harder job. It's a lot harder to get liberties back once they are lost.

    I often wonder how long FDR would have kept America out of the war had Japan not done the world the favour of attacking Pearl Harbor?
    It is interesting that he had to fire JFK's father as ambassador to Britain based on his antisemitism and anti-war rhetoric. And a young JFK admired the way fascism was uniting Germany.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

    It is true that Trump does not fit modern Republican principles, but that is because modern Republican principles have strayed far from conservatism. genuineoriginal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    So Lincoln blocked ports of a foreign nation, got it. And that never causes war.
    So, your game is deliberate obtuseness.

    Lincoln blockaded southern ports after the war had already begun. The south had already fired on Sumter days earlier, and the Confederate government had already been formed. It was open armed rebellion before Lincoln declared the blockade. Get your facts straight.

    I find it interesting that you defend the confederacy and in so doing defend the indefensible, slavery. You defend, in your attitude and ideology, the supposed right of one man to enslave another saying the slaver's supposed right to do what he wanted was greater than the right of his slaves to be free. The slave's right to be free is on the moral side of the argument. The slaver's argument is on the immoral side of the argument. You're making the same argument slave owners made prior to the Civil war: that they had the right to do what they wanted to in their own state, which was to deprive others of their liberty. No one has that right. It's a satanic fallacy as he is the originator of that kind of thinking.

    The following is a letter from Lincoln to his friend Joshua Speed who was a slave owner. That you believe the man who wrote this letter was a tyrant is incomprehensible to me.

    DEAR SPEED:—You know what a poor correspondent I am. Ever since I received your very agreeable letter of the 22d of May, I have been intending to write you an answer to it. You suggest that in political action, now, you and I would differ. I suppose we would; not quite as much, however, as you may think. You know I dislike slavery, and you fully admit the abstract wrong of it. So far there is no cause of difference. But you say that sooner than yield your legal right to the slave, especially at the bidding of those who are not themselves interested, you would see the Union dissolved. I am not aware that any one is bidding you yield that right; very certainly I am not. I leave that matter entirely to yourself. I also acknowledge your rights and my obligations under the Constitution in regard to your slaves. I confess I hate to see the poor creatures hunted down and caught and carried back to their stripes and unrequited toil; but I bite my lips and keep quiet. In 1841 you and I had together a tedious low-water trip on a steamboat from Louisville to St. Louis. You may remember, as I well do, that from Louisville to the mouth of the Ohio there were on board ten or a dozen slaves shackled together with irons. That sight was a continued torment to me, and I see something like it every time I touch the Ohio or any other slave border. It is not fair for you to assume that I have no interest in a thing which has, and continually exercises, the power of making me miserable. You ought rather to appreciate how much the great body of the Northern people do crucify their feelings, in order to maintain their loyalty to the Constitution and the Union. I do oppose the extension of slavery because my judgment and feeling so prompt me, and I am under no obligations to the contrary. If for this you and I must differ, differ we must. You say, if you were President, you would send an army and hang the leaders of the Missouri outrages upon the Kansas elections; still, if Kansas fairly votes herself a slave State she must be admitted or the Union must be dissolved. But how if she votes herself a slave State unfairly, that is, by the very means for which you say you would hang men? Must she still be admitted, or the Union dissolved? That will be the phase of the question when it first becomes a practical one. In your assumption that there may be a fair decision of the slavery question in Kansas, I plainly see you and I would differ about the Nebraska law. I look upon that enactment not as a law, but as a violence from the beginning. It was conceived in violence, is maintained in violence, and is being executed in violence. I say it was conceived in violence, because the destruction of the Missouri Compromise, under the circumstances, was nothing less than violence. It was passed in violence because it could not have passed at all but for the votes of many members in violence of the known will of their constituents. It is maintained in violence, because the elections since clearly demand its repeal; and the demand is openly disregarded.
    You say men ought to be hung for the way they are executing the law; I say the way it is being executed is quite as good as any of its antecedents. It is being executed in the precise way which was intended from the first, else why does no Nebraska man express astonishment or condemnation? Poor Reeder is the only public man who has been silly enough to believe that anything like fairness was ever intended, and he has been bravely undeceived.
    That Kansas will form a slave constitution, and with it will ask to be admitted into the Union, I take to be already a settled question, and so settled by the very means you so pointedly condemn. By every principle of law ever held by any court North or South, every negro taken to Kansas is free; yet, in utter disregard of this,—in the spirit of violence merely,—that beautiful Legislature gravely passes a law to hang any man who shall venture to inform a negro of his legal rights. This is the subject and real object of the law. If, like Haman, they should hang upon the gallows of their own building, I shall not be among the mourners for their fate. In my humble sphere, I shall advocate the restoration of the Missouri Compromise so long as Kansas remains a Territory, and when, by all these foul means, it seeks to come into the Union as a slave State, I shall oppose it. I am very loath in any case to withhold my assent to the enjoyment of property acquired or located in good faith; but I do not admit that good faith in taking a negro to Kansas to be held in slavery is a probability with any man. Any man who has sense enough to be the controller of his own property has too much sense to misunderstand the outrageous character of the whole Nebraska business. But I digress. In my opposition to the admission of Kansas I shall have some company, but we may be beaten. If we are, I shall not on that account attempt to dissolve the Union. I think it probable, however, we shall be beaten. Standing as a unit among yourselves, You can, directly and indirectly, bribe enough of our men to carry the day, as you could on the open proposition to establish a monarchy. Get hold of some man in the North whose position and ability is such that he can make the support of your measure, whatever it may be, a Democratic party necessity, and the thing is done. Apropos of this, let me tell you an anecdote. Douglas introduced the Nebraska Bill in January. In February afterward there was a called session of the Illinois Legislature. Of the one hundred members composing the two branches of that body, about seventy were Democrats. These latter held a caucus in which the Nebraska Bill was talked of, if not formally discussed. It was thereby discovered that just three, and no more, were in favor of the measure. In a day or two Douglas's orders came on to have resolutions passed approving the bill; and they were passed by large majorities!!!! The truth of this is vouched for by a bolting Democratic member. The masses, too, Democratic as well as Whig, were even nearer unanimous against it; but, as soon as the party necessity of supporting it became apparent, the way the Democrats began to see the wisdom and justice of it was perfectly astonishing.
    You say that if Kansas fairly votes herself a free State, as a Christian you will rejoice at it. All decent slaveholders talk that way, and I do not doubt their candor. But they never vote that way. Although in a private letter or conversation you will express your preference that Kansas shall be free, you would vote for no man for Congress who would say the same thing publicly. No such man could be elected from any district in a slave State. You think Stringfellow and company ought to be hung; and yet at the next Presidential election you will vote for the exact type and representative of Stringfellow. The slave-breeders and slave-traders are a small, odious, and detested class among you; and yet in politics they dictate the course of all of you, and are as completely your masters as you are the master of your own negroes. You inquire where I now stand. That is a disputed point. I think I am a Whig; but others say there are no Whigs, and that I am an Abolitionist. When I was at Washington, I voted for the Wilmot Proviso as good as forty times; and I never heard of any one attempting to un-Whig me for that. I now do no more than oppose the extension of slavery. I am not a Know-Nothing; that is certain. How could I be? How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes and foreigners and Catholics." When it comes to this, I shall prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty,—to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.

    Mary will probably pass a day or two in Louisville in October. My kindest regards to Mrs. Speed. On the leading subject of this letter I have more of her sympathy than I have of yours; and yet let me say I am,
    Your friend forever,
    A. LINCOLN.
    And that letter was written by a man who said that if slavery wasn't wrong, then nothing is ever wrong. He shows absolutely no tendencies towards being tyrannical. I have a large collection of his writings and he shows no tendency towards that in any of them.
    “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

    “One and God make a majority.”
    ― Frederick Douglass

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    So, your game is deliberate obtuseness.

    Lincoln blockaded southern ports after the war had already begun. The south had already fired on Sumter days earlier, and the Confederate government had already been formed. It was open armed rebellion before Lincoln declared the blockade. Get your facts straight.
    Lincoln provoked the attack. It's well known to everyone but you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    I find it interesting that you defend the confederacy and in so doing defend the indefensible, slavery.
    You are a liar. I was NOT defending the indefensible and your FALSE accusation is lie.

    Lincoln was a ruthless tyrant by any normal standard. And he we NO friend of the slaves. The myth that he was the "great emancipator" is a widely believed falsehood.
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
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    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Lincoln provoked the attack. It's well known to everyone but you.


    You are a liar. I was NOT defending the indefensible and your FALSE accusation is lie.

    Lincoln was a ruthless tyrant by any normal standard. And he we NO friend of the slaves. The myth that he was the "great emancipator" is a widely believed falsehood.
    So says the guy who has made nothing but assertions accompanied by zero evidence for his assertions and has been shown to factually incorrect multiple times.

    So long.
    “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

    “One and God make a majority.”
    ― Frederick Douglass

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    So says the guy who has made nothing but assertions accompanied by zero evidence for his assertions and has been shown to factually incorrect multiple times.

    So long.
    Good riddance false accuser (i.e., liar).
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Good riddance false accuser (i.e., liar).
    And still not one iota of evidence for your position.
    “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

    “One and God make a majority.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    And still not one iota of evidence for your position.
    I don't dialog with liars, I put them on my ignore list.
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    TOL Subscriber George Affleck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    I don't dialog with liars, I put them on my ignore list.
    You don't dialog at all. You make childish, unfounded statements and don't support them.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

    It is true that Trump does not fit modern Republican principles, but that is because modern Republican principles have strayed far from conservatism. genuineoriginal

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    Brilliant comeback.
    That wasn't an idle comment. Freedom is literally homosexual.

    No, that's not a point. You are pretending that 12 independent health insurance companies will not compete against each other for your business but are really one powerful entity like a government agency.
    You have a naive view of the world. What happens in reality?

    That's a false comparison typical of shallow thinking.
    I didn't realize I was in the company of such big brains.


    1. Learn to argue without flying off in every direction.
    This wasn't just a random direction to fly off in. Conservatives and libertarians, for whatever reason, have trouble understanding the role that social dynamics play even in economic life. Your ideal economic landscape itself relies on a certain social substrate to function. You need healthy families, a common understanding of morality, similar social expectations for men and women, etc...
    These are all things Marxists want to destroy, not fascists. You and I would agree probably on most economic matters, but family and God come first. This is something that, for all their faults, the fascists and national socialists understood.

    2. Liberals want control of every detail of life to shape and manage thinking from cradle to grave and eventually create zombies without the power or will to resist. Outward violence is delayed for another day when complete control is reached. For now it is enough to teach young girls they have the right to terminate life, to encourage the false freedom of immorality, to stifle freedom of speech, to stifle freedom of religion and thought, to rewrite history and corner the education system, to incite anarchy, to soften borders, to attack the constitution, to abandon inner cities...the list goes on.
    I completely agree, except about the binder cities thing. They just want to weaponize them against the new Kulaks.0


    You can't have control and liberty at the same time. History proves that illusive dream to be just another fake news item.
    Is freedom to do heroine and engage in homosexual activity good or bad? If say bad. Good vs bad control is a matter of degree, not absolutes. I'd say that "controlling" people by not allowing these things is actually liberating. People need to be liberated from their own appetites.

    Fascism
    The only official definition of Fascism comes from Benito Mussolini
    Well, Oswald Moseley had his own take. There's not much to disagree with in this synopsis, but I'd say that this:
    The use of militarism was implied only as a means to accomplish one of the three above principles
    Slightly misses the point. Fascists view(ed) struggle and conflict as the natural state of man, and saw the state as the only, or best, conduit for it. Anyways, The Doctrine of Fascism is pretty short. I'm not sure why it even needs a synopsis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    It is common to believe that Nazi Germany was a form of capitalism
    I know I keep using this line, but no one with a brain thinks this. (Schmernie Schmanders might, but he's a moron.) The whole point of early 20th century radical-reactionary movements is that they're neither capitalist nor communist. If you find yourself in conversation about these movements and the first thing you mention is economics, then you're missing the point. These aren't economic ideologies. They are, first and foremost, anti-materialistic. If you went to an Italian fascist in 1934 to complain about policy not maximizing GDP, he'd just laugh in your face.

    which is what the communists and marxists have claimed because they did not want to be associated with Hitler.
    Not should they want to, he built an entire ideology around killing them.

    The basis for this was the fact that most industries in Nazi Germany appeared to be left in private hands.


    But private ownership of the means of production existed in name only under the Nazis and the actual substance of ownership resided in the German government. It was the German government and not private owners that exercised all of the actual powers of ownership. The state decided what was to be produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it was to be sold, as well as what prices would be charged and the salaries that would be paid. They also decided what profit the private owners would receive.

    This was de facto government ownership adhering to the basic collectivist principles of the Nazis that the common good comes before the private good and the individual exists as a means to the ends of the State.
    These things are true for any authoritarian system though. Do you think the Qin Dynasty was socialist? Or Elizabethan England? If you're searching for the ancap paradise, I'm pretty sure medieval Iceland is your only bet.

    This is nothing less than full-blown socialism.
    (It isn't)

    edit:
    Also, this dude's pretty funny, but I'm not sure how to embed YouTube on here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmPwwt2OtTc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Supremum View Post
    I'm not sure how to embed YouTube on here:

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    You don't dialog at all. You make childish, unfounded statements and don't support them.
    My statements are neither childish nor unfounded. So that makes you a liar as well.

    Please read this book and learn something: https://www.amazon.com/Real-Lincoln-.../dp/0761526463
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    "This is true. Read Gramsci on the subject. Workers are too conservative in the U.S. for a real communist revolution, so he wanted to have a student's revolution instead.(I might be thinking of Marcuse)."

    What was beginning to show in the seventies, during the Counterculture,was that the majority of the followers of Frankfurt School Transformational Marxism was major American University professors and students, not the mass of working class Americans. Probably the division between the Urban Center Blue areas and the "Redneck" Heartland Red Areas began back them.

    I was there when the university students and some faculty went marching down the streets chanting "Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh, the NLF is gonna win!" Or, sometimes "Hey, Hey LBJ, how many kids did you kill today"

    Marcuse's book, “Eros And Civilization” Helped Jumpstart the following of Transformational Marxism by the university students and professors ..

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