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Thread: 30 Days, A beginning to the end of mass shootings.

  1. #211
    Journeyman Supremum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian
    Actually, violent crime, even with the uptick in the last two years, is down markedly from just a few decades ago.
    Sure, but I think the most popular explanation is that it has more to do with unleaded gasoline laws being enacted a couple of decades before the drop, not anything dealing with social programs or attitudes. The murder rate in Chicago is still 3 times higher than during Al Capone's reign.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly
    This Robert Peel guy was wrong, because his analysis goes against the God of the Universe's analysis, which is that putting to death criminals worthy of death deters crime, and even commanded men do to so.
    Where did God ever say that his laws would deter crime? Week's analysis is flatly orthogonal to God's commands.

  2. #212
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    (Evidence shows that the severity of punishment does not work as well as the certainty of getting caught)
    Sorry, but the argument is not on the severity of the punishment for a crime.

    It's on whether how well a punishment serves as a deterrent.

    Your point was addressed already.

    MISAPPLICATION of a just punishment is unjust, and whatever deterrent effect that punishment had loses its severity because of it.

    The RIGHT punishment for the RIGHT crime, namely, the death penalty for those who are worthy of death, has the greatest deterrent effect.

    It's contrary to your reading of scripture, which is quite another thing.
    You missed it, I quoted scripture immediately after the line you quoted (and it seems you ignored the rest of my post too).

    Would you please explain how my position is NOT consistent with Ecclesiastes 8:11 and Deuteronomy 17:6-7,12-13?

    Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness.The hands of the witnesses shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So you shall put away the evil from among you.Now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel.And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously. - Deuteronomy 17:6-7,12-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...3&version=NKJV

  3. #213
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supremum View Post
    Where did God ever say that his laws would deter crime?
    Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness.The hands of the witnesses shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So you shall put away the evil from among you. . . . Now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel.And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously. - Deuteronomy 17:6-7,12-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...3&version=NKJV

    Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. - Ecclesiastes 8:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1&version=NKJV

    And many other places throughout the Bible.

    Week's analysis is flatly orthogonal to God's commands.
    Who's Week?

  4. #214
    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supremum View Post
    Sure, but I think the most popular explanation is that it has more to do with unleaded gasoline laws being enacted a couple of decades before the drop, not anything dealing with social programs or attitudes. The murder rate in Chicago is still 3 times higher than during Al Capone's reign.
    It peaked at about 15 per 100,000 people in Capone's time.


    For its part, Chicago ranked 14th among cities with at least 100,000 people in 2017. Its 653 murders, measured against a population of more than 2.7 million, translated to a murder rate of 24.1 homicides per 100,000. That was less than half the rate in St. Louis and Baltimore and below the rates of cities including Cleveland; Memphis, Tennessee; and Newark, New Jersey.

    There were 563 homicides in Chicago in 2018.

    Where did God ever say that his laws would deter crime? Week's analysis is flatly orthogonal to God's commands.
    It is not the function of the government to support religious beliefs. The only function of government in punishment, is to deter crime. There are, I think, still some nations that use governmental force to enforce religious beliefs. But not here.

    The great decrease in homicide in the United States is, I think, mainly due to changing demographics. Homicide is mostly something young males do, and their are relatively fewer and fewer young males, as the population ages. Also, Hispanics represent an increasing proportion of the population.
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  5. #215
    Journeyman Supremum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    It peaked at about 15 per 100,000 people in Capone's time.


    For its part, Chicago ranked 14th among cities with at least 100,000 people in 2017. Its 653 murders, measured against a population of more than 2.7 million, translated to a murder rate of 24.1 homicides per 100,000. That was less than half the rate in St. Louis and Baltimore and below the rates of cities including Cleveland; Memphis, Tennessee; and Newark, New Jersey.

    There were 563 homicides in Chicago in 2018.
    I'm having trouble finding the work I got that from. It might have meant specific neighborhoods, I don't quite remember. It is telling though that it is still higher.

    The great decrease in homicide in the United States is, I think, mainly due to changing demographics. Homicide is mostly something young males do, and their are relatively fewer and fewer young males, as the population ages. Also, Hispanics represent an increasing proportion of the population.
    Ehh, I'd give video games(and possibly pornography) more credit than I would demographics, though Hispanics are, in general, less violent and criminal than Africans.

  6. #216
    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supremum View Post
    I'm having trouble finding the work I got that from. It might have meant specific neighborhoods, I don't quite remember. It is telling though that it is still higher.
    Yes, depending on the neighborhood, in Chicago, the rate can be much higher or much lower. Generally, the West Side and the South Side are the worst. Every sizable city is like that, with safer and less safe areas.

    (Barbarian suggests the great reduction in violent crime since the 1990s, is likely due to the smaller percentage of young males in the population, and the increase in Hispanics)

    Ehh, I'd give video games(and possibly pornography) more credit than I would demographics,
    There doesn't seem to be any evidence that video games have anything to do with it. I certainly don't see how they would bring the violent crime rate down. There is a correlation between the number of violent video games in circulation, and the decrease in violent crime, but correlation isn't necessarily causation. Supposedly, there's been a reduction in pornography being sold, but I'm guessing that it's due to the fact that almost everyone has a computer now.

    though Hispanics are, in general, less violent and criminal than Africans.
    And whites. Ironically, one of the safest places in the United States is a city on the Mexican border with a high percentage of illegal aliens.
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  7. #217
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    RE: Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    A swift execution upon conviction isn't a deterrent in a culture that embraces death.

    I disagree, I believe it does deter crime, but I will accept your conclusion in order to advance the debate.

    The deterrence in my scheme has a second level, that is for the victims to profit from the death of the murderer.

    If the victims profited in a big way with millions of dollars, the shooter is going to "feel" as if he has benefited the people he wanted to hurt. Now that is a deterrent! Would be shooters will rethink their premeditated actions, not wanting to help their enemies.

  8. #218
    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tieman55 View Post
    RE: Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    A swift execution upon conviction isn't a deterrent in a culture that embraces death.

    I disagree, I believe it does deter crime, but I will accept your conclusion in order to advance the debate.

    The deterrence in my scheme has a second level, that is for the victims to profit from the death of the murderer.

    If the victims profited in a big way with millions of dollars, the shooter is going to "feel" as if he has benefited the people he wanted to hurt. Now that is a deterrent! Would be shooters will rethink their premeditated actions, not wanting to help their enemies.
    Back to the Anglo-Saxon weregild, um?
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  9. #219
    Toxic Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    It's easy to tell when Barbarian is flustered. He starts umming.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
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  11. #220
    TOL Legend Ktoyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    We kill far more murderers than the vast majority of nations. We are just behind China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam and Egypt. Is that the company you'd like American to be in?

    Let's see how much good it's doing:

    We're 94th in the world in homicide rates. Which puts us in the top 100 of about 230. Mostly Africa and us. That's the neighborhood you want?

    Well, maybe it's all the states in the US that have banned executions. Let's look at that...



    Again, more homicides in states that kill murderers. consistently more, over a long period of time. Notice that as murder rates have fallen, the difference between death penalty states and non-death penalty states has gotten larger.



    Maybe murderers just aren't very smart, you think?



    See above. Turns out, the data show just the opposite. But you didn't say how many innocent people you were willing to have killed in order to have more rapid executions. How many do you think would be acceptable?

    As you know, in Texas alone, there are dozens of people wrongly sentenced to death, who are alive only because they kept appeals going long enough for someone to find that they could not have committed those murders. Would you be O.K. with killing that many innocent people in order to kill murderers more quickly?



    I can see you're sincere in your imagining, and I don't doubt you believe what you're saying. Your intention is to save innocent lives, not take them. But reality is found in the facts. If you had your way, more innocent people will die. And mostly by the state taking those lives. How many such killings of innocent people would be acceptable to you, in order to kill murderers more quickly?
    There is a confounding factor. Death penalty states have higher crime rates ad sum. The tendency is crime has dropped for time for both groups.
    So, what?

    believe it!

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    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ktoyou View Post
    There is a confounding factor. Death penalty states have higher crime rates ad sum.
    That's an interesting fact. Do you think there's a causal relationship?

    The tendency is crime has dropped for time for both groups.
    Yes. I think it's due to the lower percentage of young males in the population, compared to the 70s and 80s. Do you see any other factor?
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  13. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    That's an interesting fact. Do you think there's a causal relationship?



    Yes. I think it's due to the lower percentage of young males in the population, compared to the 70s and 80s. Do you see any other factor?
    I have not done diligence to the topic. just an old hand at research making common logical comments. You would have you weight each state by population and stratify on age to show better results. The general hypothesis, less young males is highly possible.
    So, what?

    believe it!

  14. #223
    LIFETIME MEMBER aCultureWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    The founder of Scotland Yard once remarked that the severity of the punishment did not deter crime as much as does the certainty of getting caught.
    Those going on mass murdering rampages know that they're going to get caught, hence they're not deterred by either the severity of the punishment nor the idea of getting caught.
    The very long history of Donald Trump's pro homosexual and transgender activism, before and during his Presidency, can be found on page 141, post # 2113 and #2114.
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336963
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336964

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