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Thread: Open View Theology

  1. #16
    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Red herring.



    From https://kgov.com/bel/20190723


    A comment about the Amber shows from a Canadian listener leads Bob to dub Amber a Necessary Being. In reality, God is the only necessary being. But ask yourself if, like Amber, your own theology has turned you into a necessary being, that is, if your theology were true. For example, if you believe in the settled future, and that God has static knowledge, that is, eternally unchanging exhaustive omniscience of everything that will ever be, including you, and that this eternal foreknowledge is an essential attribute of deity, then that means that you too are a necessary being (even though you're not). That is, if God could not be God apart from his knowledge of the human being that is you, then indeed, God could not be God, nor could anything else exist, if it weren't for you. So, either you are a necessary being (which you're not), or your commitment to the pagan Greek humanist doctrine that the future is settled is misplaced (which it is). So we've gone back and retitled the kgov.com/amber program.



    Don't make yourself a Necessary Being, BR. You are not necessary to God knowing all things.

    http://kgov.com/amber
    I take it that you are an open theist.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    TOL Legend drbrumley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    I take it that you are an open theist.
    this site is open theist....the only one on the web...
    The state — whatever its particular forms — always expresses itself as a collective form of property ownership. All political systems are socialistic, in that they are premised upon the subservience of individual interests to collective authority. Communism, fascism, lesser forms of state socialism, and welfarism, are all premised upon the state’s usurpation of privately-owned property. Whether one chooses to be aligned with the political "Left," "Right," or "Middle," comes down to nothing more than a preference for a particular franchise of state socialism.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post
    this site is open theist....the only one on the web...
    That's OK. I have no problem with it. All that is important is, Is Jesus Lord.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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  6. #19
    SHAZAM! Lighthouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Where does the word trinity appear in the Bible. The thought of omniscience appears here.

    1 John 3:20 New King James Version (NKJV)
    20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
    All things that are knowable.

    Did Abraham know whether or not he would go through with it, prior to bringing the knife down?


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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    All things that are knowable.

    Did Abraham know whether or not he would go through with it, prior to bringing the knife down?
    Yes, I believe he knew that God was able to resurrect his son.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

  9. #21
    SHAZAM! Lighthouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Yes, I believe he knew that God was able to resurrect his son.
    If so then it was no sacrifice and Abraham's actions meant nothing and thereby proved nothing.

    Was God lying when He said, "...now I know..."?


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  11. #22
    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    If so then it was no sacrifice and Abraham's actions meant nothing and thereby proved nothing.

    Was God lying when He said, "...now I know..."?
    Abraham did not have divine foreknowledge. He had faith. So yes it meant a lot. Was God lying?

    Titus 1:2 New King James Version (NKJV)
    2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

  12. #23
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Abraham did not have divine foreknowledge. He had faith. So yes it meant a lot. Was God lying?

    Titus 1:2 New King James Version (NKJV)
    2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
    You're sidestepping the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Was God lying when He said, "...now I know..."?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    You're sidestepping the issue.
    No I am not. The question was answered in post 8. God knew Abraham's heart. he was giving him a chance to exercise his faith.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    No I am not. The question was answered in post 8. God knew Abraham's heart. he was giving him a chance to exercise his faith.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    God tested Abraham in the command to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. God in his omniscience had always known the heart of Abraham, but here he gave Abraham an opportunity to demonstrate his faith.
    So then:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Why did God say, "...now I know.."?

    It seems to me to indicate that He did not know before, because He has that choice.
    If He already knew, then why make it sound like He didn't know before?

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  17. #26
    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    So then:



    If He already knew, then why make it sound like He didn't know before?
    Do you really believe that God did not know what Abraham would do? Why was there a ram caught in the thicket? He knew exactly what Abraham would do.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

  18. #27
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Do you really believe that God did not know what Abraham would do?
    I'll answer this as long as you answer my above question:

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    So then:

    If He already knew, then why make it sound like He didn't know before?
    Because you sidestepped it with a question.

    The answer is that I believe that God can predict how people are most likely to react, and can plan accordingly. God knows people's hearts, and can use that knowledge in His plans.

    Why was there a ram caught in the thicket?
    Because God put one there?

    What, God has to read off a script to be able to plan ahead?

    Because that's what your position limits God to doing.

    He knew exactly what Abraham would do.
    Aside from the fact that this is question begging, it just means that we're back to LH's and my question:

    If He already knew, then why make it sound like He didn't know before?

    Why say "NOW I know" instead of "I knew"?

    Usually when the Bible says "now .... something" it indicates a change in whatever is being talked about." As in, "NOW it is this way, as opposed to BEFORE it was that way."

  19. #28
    Over 2000 post club way 2 go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    If so then it was no sacrifice and Abraham's actions meant nothing and thereby proved nothing.

    Was God lying when He said, "...now I know..."?
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    You're sidestepping the issue.

    God knew what Abraham would do and God said now I know after what Abraham did

    God knew what Judas would do Mat 26:24 & what Peter would do Mar 14:30

    God knew Abraham's name, my name , your names & wrote them in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world

    Rev 17:8 The beast which you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss, and goes to perdition. And those dwelling on the earth will marvel, the ones whose names have not been written on the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, seeing the beast, that it was a thing, and is not, yet now is.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    I'll answer this as long as you answer my above question:



    Because you sidestepped it with a question.

    The answer is that I believe that God can predict how people are most likely to react, and can plan accordingly. God knows people's hearts, and can use that knowledge in His plans.



    Because God put one there?

    What, God has to read off a script to be able to plan ahead?

    Because that's what your position limits God to doing.



    Aside from the fact that this is question begging, it just means that we're back to LH's and my question:

    If He already knew, then why make it sound like He didn't know before?

    Why say "NOW I know" instead of "I knew"?

    Usually when the Bible says "now .... something" it indicates a change in whatever is being talked about." As in, "NOW it is this way, as opposed to BEFORE it was that way."
    Sorry, I can't go against all that I have been taught and know about the attributes of God. It is like saying prove that God is omnipresent, prove that He is all powerful or as you say prove that He is all knowing. If God is not all knowing then He is not God. Because you say He isn't doesn't make it so. Open theism has been around since what, the 1980's? What does it do? It questions the divine foreknowledge of God. I just do not buy into the theories and thoughts of men but will believe in what I believe to be the Word of Almighty God. I will put my trust in the God who knows all things not in the God who knows all things that are knowable.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

  21. #30
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    God knew what Abraham would do and God said now I know after what Abraham did
    Which, again, brings us back to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    If He already knew, then why make it sound like He didn't know before?

    Why say "NOW I know" instead of "I knew"?

    Usually when the Bible says "now .... something" it indicates a change in whatever is being talked about." As in, "NOW it is this way, as opposed to BEFORE it was that way."
    Continuing on...

    God knew what Judas would do Mat 26:24 & what Peter would do Mar 14:30
    You're ASSUMING that God knew that they would do the things they did, rather than just accurately predict what they would do, the former of which excludes any choice from the matter, and you're left with what amounts to what the Greeks called "Fate."

    Why?

    See here:

    https://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?p=5352334

    As Clete said, there were times when God's predictions, some of which He even specified "without fail," failed that He wanted to come to pass, and others that He DID NOT want to come to pass, that did.

    God knew Abraham's name, my name , your names & wrote them in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world
    No, He did not.

    Read the verse again, slowly this time.

    The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. - Revelation 17:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

    Did you catch it?

    The title of the book?
    "The Book of Life"

    Not:
    "The Book of Life from the foundation of the world"

    The phrase "from the foundation of the world" is not referring to the book, but to the people who lived on the earth.

    "And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast"

    In other words, people whose names were never written in the Book of Life, those people will marvel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Sorry, I can't go against all that I have been taught and know about the attributes of God.
    If what you have been taught is found to be wrong, you shouldn't cling to it.

    It's called being intellectually dishonest.

    You're so attached to what you've been taught, that you're not willing to accept correction, because it goes against what you were taught.

    You should be willing to discard doctrine that has been shown to be false, and re-examine doctrine that has holes in it.

    A cracked foundation will eventually lead to the building's collapse.

    Your foundation is cracked. You should reevaluate your position.

    It is like saying prove that God is omnipresent, prove that He is all powerful or as you say prove that He is all knowing.
    Which isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that the Bible DOES NOT say that God IS those things, or at the very least, not in the same way you understand those things.

    If God is not all knowing then He is not God.
    Are you willing to fall on that sword?

    Because taking such a position, as a natural consequence, makes you a Necessary Being.

    Again, I point to http://kgov.com/amber and https://kgov.com/bel/20190723.

    God is the only necessary being.

    Because you say He isn't doesn't make it so.
    The fact remains that your doctrine makes you a necessary being (even though you are not). It's a form of idolatry, and even blasphemy.

    I advise you to retract your statement, that "If God is not all knowing then He is not God."

    Open theism has been around since what, the 1980's?
    The idea that God is free (let alone man) has been around since before Christ came to the earth.

    See Jeremiah 18.

    Then along came Augustine and his adherence to Plato's and Aristotle's pagan teachings on fate, and then Calvin with his adherence to Augustine, and you end up with the omni's and im's.

    What does it do?
    It tries to show God for who He really is, not through the lens of pagan Greek philosophy, but through the lens of scripture.

    It questions the divine foreknowledge of God.
    Rather, what it questions is the pagan foundations of many doctrines which have been incorporated into Christianity that are not in the Bible.

    I just do not buy into the theories and thoughts of men but will believe in what I believe to be the Word of Almighty God.
    This is an argument from incredulity, a logical fallacy.

    I will put my trust in the God who knows all things not in the God who knows all things that are knowable.
    See Clete's post above.

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