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Thread: Conservatives Against Liberty

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    LIFETIME MEMBER aCultureWarrior's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
    Which falls under the role of civil government.

    So your idea of "public safety" means that the government should run every aspect of our lives?
    Government has it's role as seen in Romans 13:4 and 1 Peter: 2: 13-15. I'd ask for an example of what you mean by "every aspect of our lives", but my requests for examples haven't been fruitful thus far.


    Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
    Would you not agree that false advertising and selling tainted meat is dishonesty, i.e. "fraud", which is a form of "thievery"?

    A nice smoke screen to guard your idea that the government should run every aspect of our lives.
    Fraud:

    NOUN
    wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.


    Sounds like thievery to me, which you stated in your earlier post government has a role in punishing those who do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    The role of government is NOT to inspect meat. It is to punish murders and thieves
    The very long history of Donald Trump's pro homosexual and transgender activism, before and during his Presidency, can be found on page 141, post # 2113 and #2114.
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336963
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336964

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    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    Government has it's role as seen in Romans 13:4 and 1 Peter: 2: 13-15.
    Romans 13:4 is clearly NOT about such things as meat inspection. It is clearly about capital crimes. Unless you think that bad meat sellers should fall under the SWORD!

    Peter is speaking to Israelite's scattered into foreign (gentile) lands. Not quite the context for a general discussion of government.

    You are a religious zealot that cannot see the truth even if stares you in the face.
    Last edited by Right Divider; July 19th, 2019 at 07:31 AM. Reason: true -> truth
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior

    [The fraudulent selling of goods passing them off as something else, in this case tainted meat stating that it's good meat] Sounds like thievery to me, which you stated in your earlier post government has a role in punishing those who do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Romans 13:4 is clearly NOT about such things as meat inspection. It is clearly about capital crimes. Unless you think that bad meat sellers should fall under the SWORD!
    Commentaries on Romans 13:4
    https://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/13-4.htm

    I've read the Libertarian "solution" to violations of health codes and it goes something like this:

    "The word will get around after 30 or 40 people die at Joe's Restaurant because he sold products that were tainted and brought on diseases like E.coli, etc., and hence Joe, due to lack of patronage, will be forced to go out of business."

    Sound about right?

    Peter is speaking to Israelite's scattered into foreign (gentile) lands. Not quite the context for a general discussion of government.
    Commentaries on 1 Peter 2: 13-15
    https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/2-13.htm

    You are a religious zealot that cannot see the true even if stares you in the face.
    Play nice (pssssst, the word you're looking for is "statist").
    The very long history of Donald Trump's pro homosexual and transgender activism, before and during his Presidency, can be found on page 141, post # 2113 and #2114.
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336963
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336964

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    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior

    [The fraudulent selling of goods passing them off as something else, in this case tainted meat stating that it's good meat] Sounds like thievery to me, which you stated in your earlier post government has a role in punishing those who do so.
    Punishing.... not monitoring the free exchange between two people that agree on that exchange.

    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    It's amazing how you've turned one verse into this monstrosity that we see today. You seem to think that freedom itself is a great evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    I've read the Libertarian "solution" to violations of health codes and it goes something like this:

    "The word will get around after 30 or 40 people die at Joe's Restaurant because he sold products that were tainted and brought on diseases like E.coli, etc., and hence Joe, due to lack of patronage, will be forced to go out of business."

    Sound about right?
    Pretty hilarious when you need to use silly "examples" that would never exist in a free market without excessive government regulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    You and the "commentaries", like that means anything. Nobody cares about your "commentaries".

    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    Play nice (pssssst, the word you're looking for is "statist").
    Indeed you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post

    Social conservatives object to libertarians because social conservatives wish to use government power to force people to be good.

    That's really what it all comes down to.

    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

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    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

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    Originally Posted by drbrumley

    Social conservatives object to libertarians because social conservatives wish to use government power to force people to be good.

    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    That's really what it all comes down to.
    More like punish them when they're bad.

    4For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
    Romans 13:4

    That's not to say that punishment doesn't encourage people to do good, i.e. abide by the law.
    The very long history of Donald Trump's pro homosexual and transgender activism, before and during his Presidency, can be found on page 141, post # 2113 and #2114.
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336963
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336964

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    The very long history of Donald Trump's pro homosexual and transgender activism, before and during his Presidency, can be found on page 141, post # 2113 and #2114.
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336963
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336964

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    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    Whatcha doin linking a Libertarian website anna?
    It related to the OP although I don't care if it's libertarian, although I'm not. It resonated in more than one way, but one reason is because I see conservatives as having abandoned any pretense of a desire for small government, as long as they're in charge of it.

    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    Whatcha doin linking a Libertarian website anna?
    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    It related to the OP although I don't care if it's libertarian, although I'm not. It resonated in more than one way, but one reason is because I see conservatives as having abandoned any pretense of a desire for small government, as long as they're in charge of it.
    Interesting article. Let's put aside the idea that municipalities and State governments have some kind of "right" to indoctrinate children at "Drag Queen Story Hour", as it has absolutely nothing to do with nationalism.

    Yet the true object of the nationalists' ire is much closer to home: They cannot abide individual Americans making social and economic choices they do not like. For consumers, the question might be whether to buy foreign or domestic. For a business owner, it might be where to open a factory. For a parent, it might be whether or not to attend drag queen story hour at the local library. Regardless, the new nationalists have decided not only that there is a right answer from a moral perspective but that government should force you to choose correctly.

    Let's talk about economic nationalism and whether or not I should support your American business and hence build a strong economy here at home instead of supporting the mass murdering Communist Chinese and the corporations that make an easy buck off of slave labor.

    I found these words in the article to be less than forthright, for the simple reason you can't effectively put tariffs on goods coming in from other countries unless you have massive businesses here at home that supply the same goods.

    Practically speaking, the nationalist agenda is largely focused on the need for a federal "industrial policy." For Breitbart's John Carney, that means tariffs, and lots of them.

    I'll guarantee you that for every product that says "Made in America" there's hundreds more that say "Made in China".
    The very long history of Donald Trump's pro homosexual and transgender activism, before and during his Presidency, can be found on page 141, post # 2113 and #2114.
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336963
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336964

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    That is the cause of more government, the immoral actions of it's citizens. It appears that the Bible is clearly at odds with Austrian Economics as well.
    You have proved yourself either completely ignorant of our government as set up by the founding fathers, or very dishonest.

    Our legal system was for years based upon Blackstone's Commentaries which are directly based upon Biblical legal concepts. It wasn't until the late 19th century that the current concepts of law as practiced now were introduced into this nation. And our founders set us up so that in our political system the most power was held at the township level, a lesser amount of power at the county level, an even lesser amount of power at the state level, and the weakest least powerful part of government at the federal level. That has been completely turned on its ear for the federal government is now the supreme power in the US. IOWs our constitution has been destroyed qnd the state has usurped the power originally held by the individual. And that is what you advocate. You are a totalitarian and you prove it with every post you create.

    Austrian economics is Biblical. Look at how God originally set up the nation of Isreal's economy. The only restrictions on it were those placed on it by the 10 commandments which are the perfect set of moral laws. Those laws governed the moral character of the individual, and only indirectly governed business. It did that by requiring moral behavior of the individual, You want to prove that wrong? Show me scripture giving business regulations telling the Israelites/Jews how to set up and run their businesses. As all means of production was owned by the individual it was capitalism in it's purest sense. And that is what is taught by Hayek, von Mises, Rothbard, and others. If you were a thinking individual you would already know that the only way to have a moral society, and businesses run in a moral way is through self-government of the individual in the areas of morality for that is what the Bible teaches us. Moral people make moral choices. Immoral people make immoral choices. You're never going to legislate that out of existence.
    “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”

    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”

    ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

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    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
    Laissez-faire (buyer beware) capitalism and unchecked property rights?



    I used the wrong word, I meant caveat emptor, which if the buyer has to beware of what he's purchasing, "dishonesty and fraud" usually would come into play.

    How do promoters of Austrian Economics feel about the buyer having to beware of what he's purchased?




    Choices on what? Things that are immoral? Things that could instantly kill a human being and if spread, kill thousands of other human beings? Be more specific.



    Subsidizing a private company or industries like Donald Trump has done with soybean farmers, etc. etc. etc. is socialism. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about a legitimate role that government has in protecting it's citizens from "dishonesty and fraud" and things that are detrimental to the moral fiber of a country, as well as the overall physical health of individuals and a nation.



    Like opening a nightclub in a residential neighborhood? Are promoters of Austrian Economics against zoning laws?



    Actually God created civil government and gives specific instructions as to it's role: "God's servant for your good...They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." (Romans 13:4, 1 Peter 2:13-15)

    He also gave mankind instructions on what kind of civil leaders should be chosen: "But select capable men from all the people-men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain-and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens." (Exodus 18:21)
    "13Choose some wise, understanding and respected men from each of your tribes, and I will set them over you." (Deuteronomy 1:13)

    Blame the citizens who choose the leaders of their government for the corruption, not the institution of government itself.




    As you said in your earlier post:



    That is the cause of more government, the immoral actions of it's citizens. It appears that the Bible is clearly at odds with Austrian Economics as well.
    I'm only going to respond to what I emphasized above.

    So, in a world of sin everyone should just throw caution to the wind and trust government to force everyone to be moral? No one should show judgment in who to trust and who to not trust, and should throw self-preservation on the arms of an incorruptible government. Right? No government has ever been corrupt in the history of our planet. Right? There is no corruption in our nation's politicians and never has been. Right? All government inspectors/regulators are completely moral, above reproach, and way, way above ever being corruptible. Right?

    The link below is who you say we should trust to be honest, forthright, and incorruptible.

    https://www.naturalnews.com/035641_c...ig_Pharma.html

    Now, as to your misapplication of Paul's writings. In your mind the Roman government was cooperating with God and doing His work when they hung Peter upside down. They were also doing God's will when they threw Christians to the lions in the amphitheaters. They were also doing God's will when they killed the man you quoted. And the Jewish leadership combined with Pilate and Herod were doing God's will when they killed not only John the Baptist, but Jesus as well. I suppose Ahab and Jezebel were God's servants as well as they were the government of Israel. How about when the Hugenot's were slaughtered in France? That was government doing God's will, right? How about the governments of the world that cooperated with the Inquisition for centuries? They were doing God's will, right? Government is just sooooo beneficient, kind, loving, and has such a tender moral conscience. Right?
    “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”

    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”

    ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

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  17. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    Austrian economics is Biblical.
    Are unchecked private property rights that adversely affect your neighbor biblical? Are anti zoning laws biblical? Is failing to provide your customers with a safe and healthy place to purchase goods biblical?
    The very long history of Donald Trump's pro homosexual and transgender activism, before and during his Presidency, can be found on page 141, post # 2113 and #2114.
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336963
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336964

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post

    So, in a world of sin everyone should just throw caution to the wind and trust government to force everyone to be moral?
    That's the God ordained role of civil government, to punish those who do evil.

    A righteous civil government can't force people to do good, but it can punish them when they're not. In essence that's encouraging them to do good.

    No one should show judgment in who to trust and who to not trust, and should throw self-preservation on the arms of an incorruptible government. Right? No government has ever been corrupt in the history of our planet. Right? There is no corruption in our nation's politicians and never has been. Right? All government inspectors/regulators are completely moral, above reproach, and way, way above ever being corruptible. Right?
    Corruption in civil government and continuing to allow it to happen is on the people who elect those public officials, not on the institution itself. God created civil government for a purpose (to punish evil) and commands what kind of civil leaders should rule so that there won't be corruption.
    The very long history of Donald Trump's pro homosexual and transgender activism, before and during his Presidency, can be found on page 141, post # 2113 and #2114.
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336963
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336964

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    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    Are unchecked private property rights that adversely affect your neighbor biblical? Are anti zoning laws biblical? Is failing to provide your customers with a safe and healthy place to purchase goods biblical?
    What you're talking about isn't even addressed under Austrian economic theory. Do God's laws address these issues? They do for Jesus said the entire law and the prophets hangs upon the golden rule. Like I said before, God set up the nation of Israel so that economic issues were only indirectly affected by the laws of God. He set up no laws concerning economics other than giving the individual the ownership of all means of production. That is capitalism. And that is how liberty works.

    Israel's business climate was controlled by each individual's personal morality. That's how God set it up. You want to argue with that you need to take it up with God and tell Him He didn't do things the right way.

    When the Israelites/Jews would get corrupt by not following God's laws what would happen is that God would condemn their lack of relationship with Him and their individual lack of morality, not set up more laws governing behavior for everything in life. You ought to actually read the Bible some times so you'll know what's in it.
    “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”

    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”

    ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

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