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Thread: Trump: Racist Firestorm

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alate_One View Post
    You misread what I said. I meant the people the ban included were nearly all people of middle eastern descent, not that the entire global population of middle eastern people were banned.
    Not quite. Saudi Arabia was exempted. As you might remember, most of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia.

    But Trump has a lot of business projects in Saudi Arabia.

    So you know what came out as first priority, don't you?
    This message is hidden because ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    only if the ethnic makeup of the country is homogeneous

    or if you re-define "race" to mean "country of origin"
    In the countries in question that's fairly well the case, race isn't the same as ethnicity. Racist people in the US look at countries like Iran, Iraq and Syria as being racially the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    So you know what came out as first priority, don't you?
    With Trump it's always about money first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alate_One View Post
    ... the people the ban included were nearly all people of middle eastern descent....

    indeed

    you could have just said that some of the people the original ban included were all citizens of Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen

    the fact remains that the travel ban did not target most people of middle eastern descent

    or the overwhelming majority of muslims in the region, not to mention the world


    can we agree that the travel ban ignored more muslims than it targeted?

    can we agree that the travel ban ignored more people of middle eastern descent than it targeted?

    and can we agree that the initial travel ban targeted three countries outside the Middle East?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alate_One View Post
    In the countries in question that's fairly well the case, race isn't the same as ethnicity.
    ok, let's define terms

    when you use the term "race", what do you mean?

    Racist people in the US look at countries like Iran, Iraq and Syria as being racially the same.
    if you say so, i try to avoid interacting with ignorant people

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alate_One View Post

    All of that said I was really looking at the immigration issues on the southern border, which seems to be Trump's singular obsession.

    well, let's finish putting this "muslim travel ban" nonsense to bed first

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post

    can we agree that the travel ban ignored more muslims than it targeted?
    Can you agree this is not at all the argument I was making? You're beating an imaginary dead horse.

    5 of the seven countries would be considered by the average person with racist ideas as middle eastern. The other two you listed are still majority people of color.

    Not included was any majority Muslim nation with a majority white population, say Azerbaijan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    ok, let's define terms

    when you use the term "race", what do you mean?
    By race I mean a group of people defined primarily by skin tone, hair color and texture which may or may not include a precise country of origin, but usually doesn't.

    Race doesn't have a biological definition, as there are no consistent characters within a race. Ethnicity and ancestral populations can be detected, but that's different from race.

    White usually just refers to people with lighter skin tone, eyes (sometimes) and lighter hair, usually with origins somewhere in Europe. It used to be defined specifically as only northern Europe (specifically English and French ancestry primarly) and not eastern Europe (Poles and Irish weren't white originally).

    As a race "middle eastern" would include most of the countries of the middle east, but probably more to the average white person since determinations are often based on a person's appearance. I would argue that this particular racial definition is also relatively new, many of these people might formerly have been considered white.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alate_One View Post
    Can you agree this is not at all the argument I was making?
    your statement that I responded to was:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alate_One View Post
    Trump ... promotes ideas that discriminate on the basis of race and promotes policies that do the same.
    as I've showed with the travel ban, it did not target race, it targeted national origin



    5 of the seven countries would be considered by the average person with racist ideas as middle eastern.
    again, i'll defer to your greater experience reading the minds of average people with racist ideas

    i try to avoid them


    The other two you listed are still majority people of color.
    which color?

    and were the minority who were not "people of color" excluded from the ban?

    Not included was any majority Muslim nation with a majority white population, say Azerbaijan.
    or "brown" countries with the largest muslim populations, say Indonesia, Pakistan, India

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alate_One View Post
    By race I mean a group of people defined primarily by skin tone, hair color and texture ...
    so to you race is defined primarily by appearance?

    if someone "looks" a certain way, then you categorize them as a certain race?


    obama's mother was of Irish heritage, i believe

    his father was Kenyan

    which "race" would you categorize obama as?

    racist people tend to identify him as "black" because of his appearance - skin tone, hair color and texture, etc

    non-racist people will note that he is mixed race, 50/50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alate_One View Post
    Not included was any majority Muslim nation with a majority white population, say Azerbaijan.
    the same is true of the travel restrictions implemented by obama, the restrictions that were widened into a ban by trump

    was it racist of obama to exclude majority Muslim nations with a majority white population, say Azerbaijan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    so to you race is defined primarily by appearance?

    if someone "looks" a certain way, then you categorize them as a certain race?
    These are not my categories, they are a societies' categories. Race is defined by society, in this case usually the dominant mostly white society. I see what society classes as race and try not to define people by race but by their individual experiences.

    non-racist people will note that he is mixed race, 50/50
    Someone has not heard of the one drop rule. :P

    Also nearly all African Americans have some element of racial admixture from Europeans. Do you class all black people you see as "mixed race"? People from Africa also have a mixture of skin tones depending on where their ancestors lived on the continent. Some are lighter than others despite having 100% African ancestry. Would you assume those people were "mixed race" just by looking at them?

    There are no non-racist people, only racist and anti-racist. Racism doesn't have to define a person either. A person can be racist or anti-racist in any given moment. I endeavor to be anti-racist but western society is a powerful messenger when it comes to race. It says that people with lighter skin are superior to those with darker skin. To pretend society is not racist is to be in denial.
    “We do not believe in God because we need to explain this or that feature of the world. That is what science is for. We believe in God because we see something deeper in the world, something that transcends the scientific explanations.” - Karl Giberson Ph.D.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    the same is true of the travel restrictions implemented by obama, the restrictions that were widened into a ban by trump

    was it racist of obama to exclude majority Muslim nations with a majority white population, say Azerbaijan?
    A ban over an entire country is racist since it paints everyone in said country with the same brush. It's grouping people with racial stereotypes that is problematic. Restrictions based on actions would not be problematic so long as they were applied equally.
    “We do not believe in God because we need to explain this or that feature of the world. That is what science is for. We believe in God because we see something deeper in the world, something that transcends the scientific explanations.” - Karl Giberson Ph.D.

    Some of the Evidence for Climate Change

    The Biologos Foundation - The science and faith of theistic evolution explained.

    What Darwin Never Knew

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    which "race" would you categorize obama as?

    racist people tend to identify him as "black" because of his appearance - skin tone, hair color and texture, etc
    Recognizing that society will typically class someone as "black" does not make one racist. However, Obama self identified as black.
    “We do not believe in God because we need to explain this or that feature of the world. That is what science is for. We believe in God because we see something deeper in the world, something that transcends the scientific explanations.” - Karl Giberson Ph.D.

    Some of the Evidence for Climate Change

    The Biologos Foundation - The science and faith of theistic evolution explained.

    What Darwin Never Knew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alate_One View Post
    A ban over an entire country sis racist since it paints everyone in said country with the same brush.
    was it racist to ban Germans in the first half of the 1940s?

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