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Thread: Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    So what you're saying is that once a person believes, how they live their life afterwards has zero impact on their salvation?
    That's what the Bible says.... I just believe it.
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    That's what the Bible says.... I just believe it.
    That's NOT what the bible says, you believe a lie

    Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    That's NOT what the bible says, you believe a lie

    Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
    Cherry picking again.... out of season....
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    TOL Subscriber turbosixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Cherry picking again.... out of season....
    Gal. 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Gal. 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
    Random verses will not prove your point.

    I already showed you scripture proving the point... none of us can help you because you refuse to see.
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Pride.
    That's a correct answer but it goes deeper than that.
    The tendency toward legalism has to do with our fallen nature. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was the first manesfestation of the law and what we refer to now as "the law" is an outworking ofthe Tree's ministry (i.e. the fruit of the Tree of the Knoweldge of Good and Evil) and both the Tree and the law have what the bible calls a "ministry of death". And so, being descendants of Adam, we all have this tendency toward legalism. But, just as the Tree was the alternative to God in the Garden, so also is the law the alternative to Christ living in us (i.e. grace).

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    This is talking about the man's work.

    My question is what is the outcome of the man who believes but does nothing?
    Answer your own question.

    What do you say happens to such a person?

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    That's a correct answer but it goes deeper than that.
    The tendency toward legalism has to do with our fallen nature. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was the first manesfestation of the law and what we refer to now as "the law" is an outworking ofthe Tree's ministry (i.e. the fruit of the Tree of the Knoweldge of Good and Evil) and both the Tree and the law have what the bible calls a "ministry of death". And so, being descendants of Adam, we all have this tendency toward legalism. But, just as the Tree was the alternative to God in the Garden, so also is the law the alternative to Christ living in us (i.e. grace).
    I think that we agree, but pride is what underlies that.

    The serpent played into their pride in the garden.

    Gen 3:5 KJV For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Answer your own question.

    What do you say happens to such a person?
    I suggest to you that to believe is to obey. So the person that does not walk in the Spirit is not a believer. We know the fate of unbelievers.

    Does grace require nothing of us?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I suggest to you that to believe is to obey. So the person that does not walk in the Spirit is not a believer. We know the fate of unbelievers.

    Does grace require nothing of us?
    It requires you to quit trying to save yourself.

    Eph 2:8-10 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I suggest to you that to believe is to obey. So the person that does not walk in the Spirit is not a believer. We know the fate of unbelievers.
    I just love double talk. Why is it that you legalists can't just give a straight answer?

    It doesn't matter, I get the point.

    You doctrine is law, not grace. There is functionally no difference, in your doctrine, between the two. You've made law and grace synonyms.

    Does grace require nothing of us?
    Belief. We are saved by faith. We walk the same way.

    You want to believe that we are saved by grace and walk according to the flesh.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    You doctrine is law, not grace. There is functionally no difference, in your doctrine, between the two. You've made law and grace synonyms.
    Since the creation of man we please God by following His will. I don't believe that has changed.
    Paul said we are under the law of Christ.
    1 Cor. 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
    Gal. 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
    Is the law of Christ empty?
    What does it mean to you to "obey the gospel"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Belief. We are saved by faith. We walk the same way.
    Belief is walking in obedience to Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    You want to believe that we are saved by grace and walk according to the flesh.
    That's what I understand from others so I asked RD this: So what you're saying is that once a person believes, how they live their life afterwards has zero impact on their salvation?
    And he said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    That's what the Bible says.... I just believe it.
    What else am I supposed to think?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    What else am I supposed to think?
    RD has shown you that, according to the apostle Paul, we are saved (past tense) by grace through faith and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES.

    RD has also shown you that rewards are NOT a gift, but that salvation by grace through faith IS THE GIFT of GOD.

    Why are these so hard for you to understand?

    --- PRIDE --- your pride has you in a death trap.
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I agree. Do you believe that God has no rules/expectations for us once we believe?
    Of course God does. Don't all Fathers have expectations of their Children?

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Since the creation of man we please God by following His will. I don't believe that has changed.
    Paul said we are under the law of Christ.
    1 Cor. 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
    Gal. 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
    Is the law of Christ empty?
    What does it mean to you to "obey the gospel"?
    It means to believe the biblical facts concerning my position in Christ, to believe that I am hidden in Him; that I am perfect and cannot be improved upon in Him; that it is no longer I who live but Christ lives His life through me BY FAITH, not by my strength or my effort or my obedience but rather by the obedience of Christ who was obedient in my stead even unto death on the cross.


    “The Proper Attitude of Man Under Grace:

    “To believe, and to consent to be loved while unworthy, is the great secret.
    “To refuse to make ‘resolutions’ and ‘vows’; for that is to trust in the flesh.
    “To expect to be blessed, though realizing more and more lack of worth…
    “To rely on God’s chastening [child training] hand as a mark of His kindness…

    “Things Which Gracious Souls Discover:

    “To ‘hope to be better’ [hence acceptable] is to fail to see yourself in Christ only.
    “To be disappointed with yourself, is to have believed in yourself.
    “To be discouraged is unbelief,—as to God’s purpose and plan of blessing for you.
    “To be proud, is to be blind! For we have no standing before God, in ourselves.
    “The lack of Divine blessing, therefore, comes from unbelief, and not from failure of devotion…
    To preach devotion first, and blessing second, is to reverse God’s order, and preach law, not grace. The Law made man’s blessing depend on devotion; Grace confers undeserved, unconditional blessing: our devotion may follow, but does not always do so,—in proper measure.

    - Romans, Verse by Verse, Wm. R. Newell (Emphasis added)

    Belief is walking in obedience to Christ.
    You'd have made a good Jew.

    That's what I understand from others so I asked RD this: So what you're saying is that once a person believes, how they live their life afterwards has zero impact on their salvation?
    And he said:


    What else am I supposed to think?
    Right Divider is absolutely correct. You cannot improve upon nor add to the righteousness of Christ. Your standing is in Him and in Him only. Your job is not to work but to rest in His finished work.

    This is the very gospel of grace itself. Until you accept it, your so called good works will amount to nothing on judgement day as they will all be the fruit of your flesh rather than the fruit of the Spirit. You works, as a result, will be burned up as just so much chaff.

    Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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