User Tag List

Page 19 of 26 FirstFirst ... 916171819202122 ... LastLast
Results 271 to 285 of 380

Thread: Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?

  1. #271
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    14,006
    Thanks
    1,286
    Thanked 8,758 Times in 5,751 Posts

    Mentioned
    104 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147843
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    False
    Since you and those in the Neo-MAD community teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works then tell us what "works" did the Jews who lived under the law have to do to justify themselves in the eyes of God?

    What "works" did David, who lived under the law, have to do to be saved?

  2. #272
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    9,770
    Thanks
    690
    Thanked 7,103 Times in 3,782 Posts

    Mentioned
    65 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147777
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Since you and those in the Neo-MAD community teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works then tell us what "works" did the Jews who lived under the law have to do to justify themselves in the eyes of God?

    What "works" did David, who lived under the law, have to do to be saved?
    Jesus answered this question...

    Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

    17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

    18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

    Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

    20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

    21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

    Now Jerry, don't tell me that you don't believe the words of Jesus!

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (August 25th, 2019)

  4. #273
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    119
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 18 Times in 14 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    .,.,., then tell us what "works" did the Jews who lived under the law have to do to justify themselves in the eyes of God?
    (Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
    (Jer 14:8 KJV)O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?
    (Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.
    (Deu 10:19 KJV)Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
    (Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.
    (Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.
    (Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow
    (Jer 7:6 KJV)If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
    (Jer 22:3 KJV)Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
    (Zec 7:10 KJV)And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.
    (Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
    (Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
    (Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.
    This is the one I like the most----
    (Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

  5. #274
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    14,006
    Thanks
    1,286
    Thanked 8,758 Times in 5,751 Posts

    Mentioned
    104 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147843
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Jesus answered this question...

    Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

    17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

    18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

    Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

    20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

    21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

    Now Jerry, don't tell me that you don't believe the words of Jesus!
    Unlike you I do believe Him. If a Jew kept the law perfectly he would indeed inherit eternal life, just as the Lord Jesus said. But if he broke just one commandment he was guilty of all (Jas.2:10). And the Lord Jesus told the Jews that none of them kept the law:

    "Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law?"
    (Jn.7:19).

    Since all of the Jews were guilty of breaking the law then all of them were guilty of all. The law was not given so the Jews could be saved by keeping it but instead it was given so that they would have the knowledge of sin and therefore have the knowledge that they were sinners in need of a Savior:

    "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro. 3:20).

    Earlier I said:

    "According to the teaching of the Neo-MAD crowd the Jews who lived under the law had to justify themselves in the eyes of God by keeping the law despite the fact that the Bible states in no uncertain terms that 'no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident.'"

    To this you replied:

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    False
    If you were not trying to prove that the Jews had to do the works of the law in order to be saved then why did you quote Matthew 19:16-21? You stay in a state of confusion because you just refuse to believe the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law where He told them how they could be saved:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life"
    (Jn.6:47).

  6. #275
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    14,006
    Thanks
    1,286
    Thanked 8,758 Times in 5,751 Posts

    Mentioned
    104 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147843
    Quote Originally Posted by jamesdyson View Post
    (Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
    In the following passage the Apostle Paul declares how the LORD God will judge people according to their deeds or works:

    "Who (God) will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" (Ro.2:6-12).

    Those who "continue in well doing" will inherit eternal life. But those who don't continue in well doing by sinning will perish. At that point in time the only way anyone can be saved is by the mercy or grace of God. And here the Lord Jesus tells us how a person is saved by the grace of God, whether they be Jews or Gentiles:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

  7. #276
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    9,770
    Thanks
    690
    Thanked 7,103 Times in 3,782 Posts

    Mentioned
    65 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147777
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    If you were not trying to prove that the Jews had to do the works of the law in order to be saved then why did you quote Matthew 19:16-21? You stay in a state of confusion because you just refuse to believe the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law where He told them how they could be saved:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life"
    (Jn.6:47).
    The Jews did have to do the works of the law in order to be saved. What they did not have to do was "justify themselves in the eyes of God by keeping the law". Fallen human beings justifying themselves is not possible. That does not mean, however, that the Jew did not have to obey the Law. They absolutely did have to obey it and they had to repent when they failed to do so.

    Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

    Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    Sort of hard to end something that never started.

    You aught not take this as me having any desire to debate this with you, you're entirely a waste of time in that regard. The real point here is that you don't have any idea what you're talking about. Stick with telling people what you believe and let us in the "Neo-MAD community" speak for ourselves. (Incidentally, the use of pejorative sounding nick names only shows the weakness of your own position. It doesn't persuade anyone with a working mind. Not that you seem to care about that.)

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (August 26th, 2019),Right Divider (August 26th, 2019)

  9. #277
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    14,006
    Thanks
    1,286
    Thanked 8,758 Times in 5,751 Posts

    Mentioned
    104 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147843
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    The Jews did have to do the works of the law in order to be saved.
    You ought to read the Bible for a change and throw your Neo-MAD Guide to the Bible in the trash. Here is what is said about David, who lived under the law:

    "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin"
    (Ro.4:4-8).

    In this passage Paul speaks of David as being a man whose faith is counted for righteousness apart from works. Since God imputed righteousness to David he was indeed saved apart from works. Or perhaps you want to argue that even though David's faith was counted as righteousness he wasn't saved?

    Are you willing to argue that even though Paul used David as an example of a man whom God imputeth righteousness without works that David wasn't saved apart from works?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Stick with telling people what you believe and let us in the "Neo-MAD community" speak for ourselves. (Incidentally, the use of pejorative sounding nick names only shows the weakness of your own position. It doesn't persuade anyone with a working mind. Not that you seem to care about that.)
    There is nothing pejorative about the name "Neo"-MAD." It simply means "New MAD."

    The original MAD theology did not teach that works were necessary for salvation in any dispensation and original MAD taught that the doctrine contained in the Hebrew epistles applies to those in the Body of Christ.

    Original MAD teaches that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith alone, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to them:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

    The teaching of those in the Neo-MAD camp denies these very words of the Lord and Savior!
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; August 26th, 2019 at 08:42 AM.

  10. #278
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    9,770
    Thanks
    690
    Thanked 7,103 Times in 3,782 Posts

    Mentioned
    65 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147777
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Are you willing to argue that even though Paul used David as an example of a man whom God imputeth righteousness without works that David wasn't saved apart from works?
    Yes!

    Psalms 119

    That entire chapter really but just to give a flavor...

    153 Consider my affliction and deliver me,
    For I do not forget Your law.
    154 Plead my cause and redeem me;
    Revive me according to Your word.
    155 Salvation is far from the wicked,
    For they do not seek Your statutes.



    163 I hate and abhor lying,
    But I love Your law.
    164 Seven times a day I praise You,
    Because of Your righteous judgments.
    165 Great peace have those who love Your law,
    And nothing causes them to stumble.
    166 Lord, I hope for Your salvation,
    And I do Your commandments.

    167 My soul keeps Your testimonies,
    And I love them exceedingly.
    168 I keep Your precepts and Your testimonies,
    For all my ways are before You.


    171 My lips shall utter praise,
    For You teach me Your statutes.
    172 My tongue shall speak of Your word,
    For all Your commandments are righteousness.
    173 Let Your hand become my help,
    For I have chosen Your precepts.
    174 I long for Your salvation, O Lord,
    And Your law is my delight.

    175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise You;
    And let Your judgments help me.
    176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep;
    Seek Your servant,
    For I do not forget Your commandments.
    Last edited by Clete; August 26th, 2019 at 08:50 AM.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (August 26th, 2019)

  12. #279
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    14,006
    Thanks
    1,286
    Thanked 8,758 Times in 5,751 Posts

    Mentioned
    104 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147843
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Yes!
    So according to your twisted logic God imputed righteousness to David but David wasn't saved.

    Of course you prove over and over that you refuse to believe anything that contradicts the teaching of those in the Neo-Mad camp. You continue to deny the very words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law where He makes it plain that they were saved by faith alone:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

  13. #280
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    189
    Thanks
    39
    Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2182
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Since you and those in the Neo-MAD community teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works then tell us what "works" did the Jews who lived under the law have to do to justify themselves in the eyes of God?

    What "works" did David, who lived under the law, have to do to be saved?
    Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
    Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
    Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
    Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
    Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

    Would you agree that Christ had to die before anyone could be free from the law that held them?

  14. #281
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    On the road
    Posts
    10,272
    Thanks
    34,648
    Thanked 8,748 Times in 5,616 Posts

    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147641
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So according to your twisted logic God imputed righteousness to David but David wasn't saved.
    You're projecting.

    The only reason you think Clete's logic is "twisted" is because you don't rightly divide.

    Of course you prove over and over that you refuse to believe anything that contradicts the teaching of those in the Neo-Mad camp.
    Of course, you prove over and over that you refuse to believe anything that contradicts the teaching of Jerry Shugart, even if it comes straight from the Bible.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to JudgeRightly For Your Post:

    Right Divider (August 26th, 2019)

  16. #282
    Body part Right Divider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    16,096
    Thanks
    14,757
    Thanked 22,119 Times in 12,556 Posts

    Blog Entries
    7
    Mentioned
    45 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147716

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Of course, you prove over and over that you refuse to believe anything that contradicts the teaching of Jerry Shugart, even if it comes straight from the Bible.
    Indeed, he never addresses other scripture given to him. He always goes back to quoting his pet verse in isolation from all others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Right Divider For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (August 26th, 2019)

  18. #283
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    189
    Thanks
    39
    Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2182
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So according to your twisted logic God imputed righteousness to David but David wasn't saved.

    Of course you prove over and over that you refuse to believe anything that contradicts the teaching of those in the Neo-Mad camp. You continue to deny the very words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law where He makes it plain that they were saved by faith alone:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
    "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:4-8).

    Jerry you said...
    In this passage Paul speaks of David as being a man whose faith is counted for righteousness apart from works. Since God imputed righteousness to David he was indeed saved apart from works. Or perhaps you want to argue that even though David's faith was counted as righteousness he wasn't saved?
    The verse says David described such a man, Paul did not say righteousness was imputed to David.

  19. #284
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    9,770
    Thanks
    690
    Thanked 7,103 Times in 3,782 Posts

    Mentioned
    65 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147777
    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Indeed, he never addresses other scripture given to him. He always goes back to quoting his pet verse in isolation from all others.
    And that really is the main point here, right?

    It isn't that we ignore Jesus' words, its that we do not ignore everything else He said! We don't formulate our doctrine based on a couple of sentences to the exclusion of everything else so as to turn a covenant of law into a covenant of grace. How hard is that to understand?


    How does Jerry justify, even in his own mind, the fact that he incessantly accuses us of ignoring two sentences that Jesus uttered while his doctrine requires one to ignore basically the whole rest of the bible! I mean it's got to be the mightiest feat of proof-texting lunacy I've ever heard of!


    He doesn't justify it! That's the answer to that question. He just simply ignores the incongruity because to do otherwise would require him to admit that he's made a gross error that even most children have enough discernment to avoid.

    Indeed, he never addresses other scripture given to him. He always goes back to quoting his pet verse in isolation from all others.
    Well, to be fair, he actually does address several of his problem texts but that is't the problem. The problem is that he forms his doctrine based on a very few sentences and then forces everything else to say something, anything at all really, so long as it supports, defends and agrees with those few isolated sentences.

    And then, of course, if any of us do anything that even looks similar but in the opposite direction, then that is invalid and we're not far from being told that we aren't saved and that we should believe the real gospel, yada yada yada.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (August 26th, 2019),Right Divider (August 26th, 2019)

  21. #285
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    189
    Thanks
    39
    Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2182
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    We don't formulate our doctrine based on a couple of sentences to the exclusion of everything else so as to turn a covenant of law into a covenant of grace. How hard is that to understand?
    @Jerry Shugart overlooks the fact that those under the law could only get forgiveness of sins from blood sacrifice as directed by God in the Mosaic Covenant and grants all under the law the gift of God's righteousness before Christ shed His blood at the cross. I fear Jerry himself is under the law as Paul describe those without law are a law unto themselves.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us