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Thread: Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?

  1. #271
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    False
    Since you and those in the Neo-MAD community teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works then tell us what "works" did the Jews who lived under the law have to do to justify themselves in the eyes of God?

    What "works" did David, who lived under the law, have to do to be saved?

  2. #272
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Since you and those in the Neo-MAD community teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works then tell us what "works" did the Jews who lived under the law have to do to justify themselves in the eyes of God?

    What "works" did David, who lived under the law, have to do to be saved?
    Jesus answered this question...

    Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

    17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

    18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

    Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

    20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

    21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

    Now Jerry, don't tell me that you don't believe the words of Jesus!

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  4. #273
    Journeyman
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    .,.,., then tell us what "works" did the Jews who lived under the law have to do to justify themselves in the eyes of God?
    (Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
    (Jer 14:8 KJV)O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?
    (Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.
    (Deu 10:19 KJV)Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
    (Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.
    (Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.
    (Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow
    (Jer 7:6 KJV)If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
    (Jer 22:3 KJV)Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
    (Zec 7:10 KJV)And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.
    (Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
    (Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
    (Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.
    This is the one I like the most----
    (Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

  5. #274
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Jesus answered this question...

    Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

    17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

    18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

    Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

    20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

    21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

    Now Jerry, don't tell me that you don't believe the words of Jesus!
    Unlike you I do believe Him. If a Jew kept the law perfectly he would indeed inherit eternal life, just as the Lord Jesus said. But if he broke just one commandment he was guilty of all (Jas.2:10). And the Lord Jesus told the Jews that none of them kept the law:

    "Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law?"
    (Jn.7:19).

    Since all of the Jews were guilty of breaking the law then all of them were guilty of all. The law was not given so the Jews could be saved by keeping it but instead it was given so that they would have the knowledge of sin and therefore have the knowledge that they were sinners in need of a Savior:

    "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro. 3:20).

    Earlier I said:

    "According to the teaching of the Neo-MAD crowd the Jews who lived under the law had to justify themselves in the eyes of God by keeping the law despite the fact that the Bible states in no uncertain terms that 'no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident.'"

    To this you replied:

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    False
    If you were not trying to prove that the Jews had to do the works of the law in order to be saved then why did you quote Matthew 19:16-21? You stay in a state of confusion because you just refuse to believe the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law where He told them how they could be saved:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life"
    (Jn.6:47).

  6. #275
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesdyson View Post
    (Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
    In the following passage the Apostle Paul declares how the LORD God will judge people according to their deeds or works:

    "Who (God) will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" (Ro.2:6-12).

    Those who "continue in well doing" will inherit eternal life. But those who don't continue in well doing by sinning will perish. At that point in time the only way anyone can be saved is by the mercy or grace of God. And here the Lord Jesus tells us how a person is saved by the grace of God, whether they be Jews or Gentiles:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

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