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Thread: Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?

  1. #316
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    @Jerry Shugart, Words have meaning and different words have different meanings in any language but to some though different they mean the same.

    Saved doesn't mean eternal life.

    Covenant doesn't mean testament.

    If you can't distinguish the difference then you have limited understanding and since you hold yourself above most I wanted you to address the meanings of these words that are different.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    What's fair? I addressed your proof text, now address mine, meaning what is in bold.....

    Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
    Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
    The LORD knows that He could give eternal life to believers even before the Cross because He knew that He would redeem the sins of believers who lived before the Cross:

    "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth"
    (Heb.9:15-17).

    Do you think that God lacks the power to give eternal life to believers in every age, even before the Cross, knowing that their sins would be redeemed at the Cross?

    In fact, before the Cross the sins of believers were not even imputed to them,as witnessed by what Paul said about David here:

    "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin"
    (Ro.4:5-8).

    We also see Peter saying the following:

    "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins"
    (Acts 10:43).

    Before the Cross the Lord Jesus said the following to a Jewish woman:

    "And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).

    With these things in mind there is absolutely no reason why God couldn't give believers eternal life before the Cross. And we know that before the Cross believers did receive eternal life when they believed, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord and Savior:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life"
    (Jn.6:47).

    You still have not given an interpretation of the meaning of this verse which makes any sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The LORD knows that He could give eternal life to believers even before the Cross because He knew that He would redeem the sins of believers who lived before the Cross:

    "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth"
    (Heb.9:15-17).

    Do you think that God lacks the power to give eternal life to believers in every age, even before the Cross, knowing that their sins would be redeemed at the Cross?

    In fact, before the Cross the sins of believers were not even imputed to them,as witnessed by what Paul said about David here:

    "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin"
    (Ro.4:5-8).

    We also see Peter saying the following:

    "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins"
    (Acts 10:43).

    Before the Cross the Lord Jesus said the following to a Jewish woman:

    "And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).

    With these things in mind there is absolutely no reason why God couldn't give believers eternal life before the Cross. And we know that before the Cross believers did receive eternal life when they believed, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord and Savior:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life"
    (Jn.6:47).

    You still have not given an interpretation of the meaning of this verse which makes any sense.
    I gave you an interpretation more than once you just reject it. I know you're banned and I hope you're allowed to come back, hope you can still view the forum. Until then because you have been allowed to come back multiple times I will refrain but if you're not allowed I will address your post for the sake of the readers because it matters theologically when eternal life was possible to receive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    Saved doesn't mean eternal life.
    You'll have to explain this one.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    I gave you an interpretation more than once you just reject it. I know you're banned and I hope you're allowed to come back, hope you can still view the forum. Until then because you have been allowed to come back multiple times I will refrain but if you're not allowed I will address your post for the sake of the readers because it matters theologically when eternal life was possible to receive.
    Yes, I have was banned for a short period of time. According to your ideas the Lord Jesus should have said the following:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes will have eternal life."

    But that is not what He said. Instead, He told the Jews who lived under the law that upon believing they possessed eternal life:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

    "Has" eternal life, not "will have" eternal life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Yes, I have was banned for a short period of time. According to your ideas the Lord Jesus should have said the following:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes will have eternal life."

    But that is not what He said. Instead, He told the Jews who lived under the law that upon believing they possessed eternal life:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

    "Has" eternal life, not "will have" eternal life.
    Welcome back. I laughed when I thought this and I hope you do.... I missed you....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    You'll have to explain this one.

    Since you took my post on, which I welcome, you have to start first, in my post was this..."If you can't distinguish the difference then you have limited understanding and since you hold yourself above most I wanted you to address the meanings of these words that are different" and now I will add..at least explain why there is not.

  9. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Yes, I have was banned for a short period of time. According to your ideas the Lord Jesus should have said the following:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes will have eternal life."

    But that is not what He said. Instead, He told the Jews who lived under the law that upon believing they possessed eternal life:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

    "Has" eternal life, not "will have" eternal life.
    ...and the stipulation was believes, which by definition in the plural requires a continuation for it to be possessed or Christ could have said, the one who believed because belief has to be past tense before possession in its truest form because Christ is speaking to us in a singular form when he says one... So, one who believes requires continuation.

    You still did not specifically address the meaning of these words...."otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth"..Heb.9.15-17. What do they mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    Since you took my post on, which I welcome, you have to start first, in my post was this..."If you can't distinguish the difference then you have limited understanding and since you hold yourself above most I wanted you to address the meanings of these words that are different" and now I will add..at least explain why there is not.
    Ugh!

    I have no idea what you're talking about. Which words?

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    ...and the stipulation was believes, which by definition in the plural requires a continuation for it to be possessed or Christ could have said, the one who believed because belief has to be past tense before possession in its truest form because Christ is speaking to us in a singular form when he says one... So, one who believes requires continuation.

    You still did not specifically address the meaning of these words...."otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth"..Heb.9.15-17. What do they mean?
    The analogy being drawn in that passage is of an inheritance based on a will, as in a "last will and testament". Someone's will doens't take effect until they die.

    What's so hard to understand about that?


    Incidentally, do you have any idea who that passage was written to?

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  13. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    ...and the stipulation was believes, which by definition in the plural requires a continuation for it to be possessed or Christ could have said, the one who believed because belief has to be past tense before possession in its truest form because Christ is speaking to us in a singular form when he says one... So, one who believes requires continuation.
    If it took continuing in faith then the Lord would not have told the Jews who lived under the law that they possessed eternal life when they believed:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

    The word "believe" in these verses is in the "present" tense and is therefore "durative".

    According to the Greek experts the Greek present tense can be in regard to a continuous action beginning in the past and continuing into the present time:

    "The durative (linear or progressive) in the present stem: the action is represented as durative (in progress) and either as timeless or as taking place in present time (including, of course, duration on one side or the other of the present moment"
    (Blass & DeBrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, p. 166.)

    "The present tense may be used to describe an action which, begun in the past, continues in the present. The emphasis is on the present time" (Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 519).

    "A Present Tense form is called durative when the context conveys an action that began in the past and continues into the present" (Young, Intermediate Greek, p.111-112).

    The Lord was not telling anyone that they must continue to hear Him speaking in the distant future in order to be saved. Instead, those who were believing Him as He spoke His words were at that moment passed from death unto life and will not come into judgment:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner View Post
    You still did not specifically address the meaning of these words...."otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth"..Heb.9.15-17. What do they mean?
    They mean exactly what they say. Without the Cross no one could be saved from eternal destruction. However, since the Father knew that the Lord Jesus' death on the Cross would redeem the sins of the believers who lived before the Cross (Heb.9:15) He remitted those previous sins through His "forbearance":

    "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God"
    (Ro.3:25).

    In other words, God tolerated the sins of believers before the Cross and even remitted their sins knowing that at the Cross the Lord Jesus's blood would redeem the sins of all the believers who lived before the Cross. Therefore, since their sins were taken away before the Cross the Lord Jesus told believers that they already possessed eternal life.

    However, you seem to think that God is powerless to do these things even though the Scriptures states that with God all things are possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    [Jesus] told the Jews who lived under the law that upon believing they possessed eternal life:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

    "Has" eternal life, not "will have" eternal life.
    Are we mortal or immortal at this moment?

    1 Corinthians 15:52-54
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


    Is the eternal life we have at this moment more than a promise?

    1 John 2:25
    25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.


    Do we see the fulfillment of the promise at the coming of Christ?

    1 Corinthians 15:22-23
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


    Is there a list of who will be given eternal life at the coming of Christ?

    Luke 10:20
    20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.


    Can your name be removed from that list?

    Psalm 69:28
    28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Are we mortal or immortal at this moment?
    What Paul calls the "÷utward man" 2 Cor.4:16 will indeed perish but the "inward man" who believes already posesses eternal life. The Lord Jesus made that known when He said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Can your name be removed from that list?
    Here is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom He gave eternal life:

    "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

    Besides, the Scriptures reveal that eternal life is a gift and the LORD will not take back a gift which He has given:

    "for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).

    The word "irrevocable" means "not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final."

    You should rejoice and praise the LORD knowing because you already possess eternal life and you will always have eternal life which is the Son (1 Jn.5:11).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    What Paul calls the "÷utward man" 2 Cor.4:16 will indeed perish but the "inward man" who believes already posesses eternal life. The Lord Jesus made that known when He said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:

    "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).



    Here is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom He gave eternal life:

    "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

    Besides, the Scriptures reveal that eternal life is a gift and the LORD will not take back a gift which He has given:

    "for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).

    The word "irrevocable" means "not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final."

    You should rejoice and praise the LORD knowing because you already possess eternal life and you will always have eternal life which is the Son (1 Jn.5:11).
    You seem to have forgotten that there is a condition that must be met.

    1 John 2:24
    24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    You seem to have forgotten that there is a condition that must be met.

    1 John 2:24
    24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
    That is a first class conditional sentence:

    First Class Condition
    - Is considered the 'Simple Condition' and assumes that the premise (protasis) is true for the sake of argument. The protasis is formed with the helping word ei ('if') with the main verb in the indicative mood, in any tense; with any mood and tense in the apodosis.


    Besides that, anyone who truly believes in his heart will always believe the truth by which we are saved:

    "The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1-2).

    Of course you just IGNORED the words of the Lord Jesus when He said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish! Why don't you believe what we read here?:

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"
    (Jn.3:16).

    And do you really believe that the Lord will take back the gift of eternal life from those to whom He gave that gift despite the fact that the Scriptures reveal that He will do no such thing?:

    "for Godĺs gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).

    The word "irrevocable" means "not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final."

    Let me remind you that it only those who "believe God" who are justified in His sight (Ro.4:3).

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