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Thread: The idea of 'Climate Change' and 'Global Warming'

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Desert soil, if merely watered, is usually very fertile. Sand dunes, not so much, but most deserts are not sand dunes. If you're out by El Paso in the spring, it's astonishing how fast that barren desert turns green and flowered, when the spring rains get there.



    (this is not one of my images)
    Those are weeds.

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    A weed is a plant growing where you don't want it. People around El Paso take a great deal of enjoyment from the desert flowers every spring.

    Most desert soils are called Aridisols (dry soil). However, in really dry regions of the Sahara and Australian outback, the soil orders are called Entisols. Entisols are new soils, like sand dunes, which are too dry for any major soil horizon development. They also occur in floodplains after a spring flood, which is why they can occur in the desert.

    The desert may look dry, but it still contains a lot of living organisms. This includes a living, biological crust, whcih is formed by algae, moss, and lichens in a group. Aridisols are very fertile, however, often don't have the rainfall to sustain life. When it rains, dormant seeds wake up and form desert blooms. The permanent vegetation (like cacti and shrubs) is very well adapted to living without moisture for long periods of time.

    https://www.soils4teachers.org/deserts/

    The greening of the Sahara will be decades in the making, because of the widespread sand. However, the southern border of the Sahara is retreating as the dry land greens up and the dunes become fixed by vegetation.

    https://www.saharadesertkingdom.com/...OM-TOUR-31.jpg

    What I didn't know was that the greening of the Sahara could have some adverse effects:

    Sahara greening may intensify tropical cyclone activity worldwide
    Future climate warming could lead to a re-greening of the southernmost Sahara (Sahel), with decreased dust emissions and changes in land cover. In a recent study, researchers at the Department of Meteorology at Stockholm University have found that tropical cyclone activity may have increased during past warm climates in connection with a greening of the Sahara.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0608073356.htm

    Good for North Africa. Maybe not so good for people living on the Atlantic or Gulf coasts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    90 million years ago heat didn't exist.
    Comes down to evidence.
    Water circulation and mixing were not as great as they are today, because most of the oceans (e.g., the developing North Atlantic) were constricted, and the temperature differences between the poles and the Equator were minimal. Thus, the oceans experienced frequent periods of anoxic (oxygenless) conditions in the bottom waters that reveal themselves today as black shales. Sometimes, particularly during the mid-Cretaceous, conditions extended to epicontinental seas, as attested by deposits of black shales in the western interior of North America.

    The Cretaceous world had three distinct geographic subdivisions: the northern boreal, the southern boreal, and the Tethyan region. The Tethyan region separated the two boreal regions and is recognized by the presence of fossilized reef-forming rudist bivalves, corals, larger foraminiferans (single-celled organisms known for their glasslike shells, or tests), and certain ammonites (a group of extinct cephalopods known for their spiral shells) that inhabited only the warmer Tethyan waters. Early in the Cretaceous, North and South America separated sufficiently for the marine connection between the Tethys Sea and the Pacific to deepen substantially. The Tethys-to-Pacific marine connection allowed for a strong westward-flowing current, which is inferred from faunal patterns. For example, as the Cretaceous progressed, the similarity between rudist bivalves of the Caribbean and western Europe decreased, while some Caribbean forms have been found on Pacific seamounts, in Southeast Asia, and possibly in the Balkans.

    The remnants of the northern boreal realm in North America, Europe, Russia, and Japan have been extensively studied. It is known, for instance, that sediments in the southwestern Netherlands indicate several changes of temperature during the Late Cretaceous. These temperature swings imply that the boundary between the northern boreal areas and the Tethys region was not constant with time. Russian workers recognize six paleobiogeographic zones: boreal, which in this context is equivalent to Arctic; European; Mediterranean, including the central Asian province; Pacific; and two paleofloristic zonations of land. Southern boreal areas and the rocks representing the southern Tethys margin lack this level of detail.

    Magnetically, the Cretaceous was quiet relative to the subsequent Paleogene Period. In fact, magnetic reversals are not noted for a period of some 42 million years, from the early Aptian to the late Santonian ages. The lengths of Earth’s months (see synodic period) have changed regularly for at least the past 600 million years because of tidal friction and other forces that slow Earth’s rotation. The rate of change in the synodic month was minimal for most of the Cretaceous but has accelerated since. The reasons for these two anomalies are not well understood.

    https://www.britannica.com/science/Cretaceous-Period

    You lose. There's a lot more if you need to see more.

    See how easy it is to beat an argument when someone assumes His position is correct?

    Barbarian continues...
    Then a catastrophic change cooled things off, killing all land animals larger than a few kilograms in mass. Likely the Chixlub object strike, along with the eruption of the Deccan traps, was the initiator.

    OR, only around 5000 years ago the earth was ravaged by a global flood
    The Chixlub crater is there, and at the right time. Globally, there's line of Iridium (which is very rare in the Earth's crust) precisely at the KT boundary. The Deccan Traps are there for everyone to see, indicating regional vulcanism, again, at precisely the right time.

    and has been ringing like a bell ever since...
    And of course, floods wouldn't cause the Earth to "ring" at all. Even gigantic tsunamis don't do that (although they do subtly change the Earth's rotation)

    Much more massive movements,such as Earthquakes, produce seismic waves, but these rapidly attenuate. Big ones last a few days:
    https://www.earthobservatory.sg/faq-...ic-waves-reach

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Comes down to evidence.
    "Six days" "from the beginning of creation, God made man"

    There's my evidence, what's yours?

    You lose. There's a lot more if you need to see more.

    The Chixlub crater is there, and at the right time. Globally, there's line of Iridium (which is very rare in the Earth's crust) precisely at the KT boundary. The Deccan Traps are there for everyone to see, indicating regional vulcanism, again, at precisely the right time.
    If we consider the mile deep sediments around the world as a record of millions of years, then there's no way your position could be falsified, but that's not the only possibility.

    If we consider the mile deep sedimentary layers around the world as laid down at one time, during a global flood that lasted for nearly a single year, then your argument goes out the window.

    See what happens when you assume that your position is inherently correct?

    You end up blinded to other, simpler explanations for the evidence you present.

    And of course, floods wouldn't cause the Earth to "ring" at all. Even gigantic tsunamis don't do that (although they do subtly change the Earth's rotation)

    Much more massive movements,such as Earthquakes, produce seismic waves, but these rapidly attenuate. Big ones last a few days:
    It would if it the flood was caused by the fountains of the great deep breaking forth with the energy of 5,000 trillion hydrogen bombs... (thats 2.2 × 1038 ergs of energy, by the way).

    And you say a flood couldn't cause the earth to ring like a bell...

    You can find out more at https://kgov.com/hpt or at http://creationscience.com/onlinebook.

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    Barbarian observes:
    Comes down to evidence.
    https://www.britannica.com/science/Cretaceous-Period

    You lose. There's a lot more if you need to see more.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    "Six days" "from the beginning of creation, God made man"
    Well, let's see what God says...

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. [2] And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

    No offense, but I'll go with God, rather than your paraphrase of what you think He said.

    If we consider the mile deep sediments around the world as a record of millions of years, then there's no way your position could be falsified,
    Rabbit in undisturbed Cambrian deposits. There's many others. Want to hear some more?

    If we consider the mile deep sedimentary layers around the world as laid down at one time
    If that were true, the entire geologic column would exist almost everywhere on Earth. But in fact the complete column is found only in a few places. Which rules out all or even most of the land being covered by flood waters at the same time. You assumed that your position is inherently correct, and it led you down into a logical contradiction. You end up blinded to other, simpler explanations that actually fit the evidence I showed you.

    And of course, floods wouldn't cause the Earth to "ring" at all. Even gigantic tsunamis don't do that (although they do subtly change the Earth's rotation)

    Much more massive movements,such as Earthquakes, produce seismic waves, but these rapidly attenuate. Big ones last a few days.

    It would if it the flood was caused by the fountains of the great deep breaking forth with the energy of 5,000 trillion hydrogen bombs... (thats 2.2 × 1038 ergs of energy, by the way).
    Show us that. Imaginative stories are not a substitute for evidence. You see, all that energy, if released, has to be absorbed by the atmosphere into which it was vented. An erg is about one-ten millionth of a Joule. Which means, you're saying that 2.2X1030 Joules of energy were absorbed by the atmosphere.

    Now water has a high specific heat. But not high enough to take that without becoming superheated.

    All the water on Earth today would be about 1.37 × 1021 kg. To make it easier and account for waster lost, let's say 2.2. Which means each kilogram of water would absorb about 1 x 10(sup]9[/sup] Joules of energy. Or 1 x 106 Joules per gram. A million Joules per gram, then.

    But the specific heat of water is 4.186 joule/gram °C. Which is the number of Joules required to heat one gram of water by 1 degree Celsius.

    So it would take 418.6 Joules of heat to warm one gram of water from 0 degrees C to 100 degrees C. (boiling point). So there you are. Noah and his crew would have been steamed to death.


    And you say a flood couldn't cause the earth to ring like a bell...
    Yep. For one thing, even earthquakes don't do that.

    I get that people have a religious believe in that. The point is that it's neither scientifically possible, nor scripturally supported. If you have some evidence, let's see what you have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Barbarian observes:
    We wish he would pause and think for a moment before speaking.

    Well, let's see what God says...

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. [2] And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

    No offense, but I'll go with God, rather than your paraphrase of what you think He said.
    That's not all He said.

    There's more that you left out, because that was only part of day one.

    Here, allow me to quote the entirety of what God said:

    Day 1:
    Spoiler
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. - Genesis 1:1-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...5&version=NKJV


    Day 2:
    Spoiler
    Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day. - Genesis 1:6-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV


    Day 3:
    Spoiler
    Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so.And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.So the evening and the morning were the third day. - Genesis 1:9-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...3&version=NKJV


    Day 4:
    Spoiler
    Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.So the evening and the morning were the fourth day. - Genesis 1:14-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...9&version=NKJV


    Day 5:
    Spoiler
    Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”So the evening and the morning were the fifth day. - Genesis 1:20-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...3&version=NKJV


    Day 6:
    Spoiler
    Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so.And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so.Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. - Genesis 1:24-31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1&version=NKJV


    And on Day 7, God rested from creating:
    Spoiler
    Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. - Genesis 2:1-3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...3&version=NKJV


    See, six days, man at the beginning of a 7,000 year period.

    If that were true, the entire geologic column would exist almost everywhere on Earth.
    Wrong.

    http://www.creationscience.com/onlin...html#wp1100074

    Read please.

    But in fact the complete column is found only in a few places. Which rules out all or even most of the land being covered by flood waters at the same time.
    Rather, because of the above, it does no such thing.

    You assumed that your position is inherently correct,
    Rather, I let the evidence speak for itself, rather than forcing it to conform to my pre-existing beliefs.

    and it led you down into a logical contradiction.
    What logical contradiction?

    You end up blinded to other, simpler explanations that actually fit the evidence I showed you.
    Right back atcha.

    And of course, floods wouldn't cause the Earth to "ring" at all. Even gigantic tsunamis don't do that (although they do subtly change the Earth's rotation)
    See my above comment on the amount of energy released, and don't forget that I'm arguing from the position of the Hydroplate theory.

    Much more massive movements,such as Earthquakes, produce seismic waves, but these rapidly attenuate. Big ones last a few days.
    The earthquakes we have today are the RESULT of the earth being flooded.

    Show us that. Imaginative stories are not a substitute for evidence. You see, all that energy, if released, has to be absorbed by the atmosphere into which it was vented. An erg is about one-ten millionth of a Joule. Which means, you're saying that 2.2X1030 Joules of energy were absorbed by the atmosphere.

    Now water has a high specific heat. But not high enough to take that without becoming superheated.

    All the water on Earth today would be about 1.37 × 1021 kg. To make it easier and account for waster lost, let's say 2.2. Which means each kilogram of water would absorb about 1 x 10(sup]9[/sup] Joules of energy. Or 1 x 106 Joules per gram. A million Joules per gram, then.

    But the specific heat of water is 4.186 joule/gram °C. Which is the number of Joules required to heat one gram of water by 1 degree Celsius.

    So it would take 418.6 Joules of heat to warm one gram of water from 0 degrees C to 100 degrees C. (boiling point). So there you are. Noah and his crew would have been steamed to death.
    Nope. Sorry.

    That objection has been debunked.

    https://kgov.com/hydroplate-theory-h...lem-walt-brown

    Yep. For one thing, even earthquakes don't do that.
    You misunderstand.

    The earthquakes themselves ARE the ringing.

    I get that people have a religious believe in that. The point is that it's neither scientifically possible,
    Saying it doesn't make it so, and just makes you sound like you are refusing to consider the position.

    There is plenty of scientific, testable evidence for the Hydroplate theory.

    YOU just don't like it because if the HPT is correct, it invalidates your entire position..

    nor scripturally supported.
    This is just plain wrong.

    You either A) don't know scripture very well, B) don't know the HP theory very well, or C) both A and B.

    There are MANY verses that support the HPT.

    Here's two charts for you to look at.




    And a link:

    https://kgov.com/hydroplate-theory-a...e-global-flood

    If you have some evidence, let's see what you have.
    Supra.

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    Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    "Six days" "from the beginning of creation, God made man"
    Barbarian observes:
    Well, let's see what God says...

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. [2] And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

    No offense, but I'll go with God, rather than your paraphrase of what you think He said.


    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    We wish he would pause and think for a moment before speaking.
    If you had thought about it, I don't think you would have posted that.


    That's not all He said.

    There's more that you left out, because that was only part of day one.
    Nothing about man at the beginning, or even at the end of the first day. Read it and learn:

    Here, allow me to quote the entirety of what God said:

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. [2] And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters. [3] And God said: Be light made. And light was made. [4] And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness. [5] And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.

    That's what He says. He specifically says what's there at the beginning, and none of that was, much less a man.

    Barbarian observes:
    If that were true, the entire geologic column would exist almost everywhere on Earth.

    Wrong.
    No, and the excuses to which you linked, don't even address the issue. If you doubt it, present one of them and I'll show you.

    But in fact the complete column is found only in a few places. Which rules out all or even most of the land being covered by flood waters at the same time.

    Rather, because of the above, it does no such thing.
    Perhaps you linked to the wrong page. It doesn't even address the problem.

    You assumed that your position is inherently correct,

    Rather, I let the evidence speak for itself, rather than forcing it to conform to my pre-existing beliefs.
    I see your denial, but your assumptions led you into accepting a story which is not supported by the evidence or by scripture.


    And of course, floods wouldn't cause the Earth to "ring" at all. Even gigantic tsunamis don't do that (although they do subtly change the Earth's rotation)

    The earthquakes we have today are the RESULT of the earth being flooded.
    No, they happen primarily because of convection currents in the mantle moving plates of crust around. Floods have nothing whatever to do with it.

    Show us that. Imaginative stories are not a substitute for evidence. You see, all that energy, if released, has to be absorbed by the atmosphere into which it was vented. An erg is about one-ten millionth of a Joule. Which means, you're saying that 2.2X1030 Joules of energy were absorbed by the atmosphere.

    Now water has a high specific heat. But not high enough to take that without becoming superheated.

    All the water on Earth today would be about 1.37 × 1021 kg. To make it easier and account for waster lost, let's say 2.2. Which means each kilogram of water would absorb about 1 x 10(sup]9[/sup] Joules of energy. Or 1 x 106 Joules per gram. A million Joules per gram, then.

    But the specific heat of water is 4.186 joule/gram °C. Which is the number of Joules required to heat one gram of water by 1 degree Celsius.

    So it would take 418.6 Joules of heat to warm one gram of water from 0 degrees C to 100 degrees C. (boiling point). So there you are. Noah and his crew would have been steamed to death.

    Nope. Sorry. That objection has been debunked.
    Here's one of your "debunking stories";

    Fluids cool rapidly as they expand (as in from below the crust to the surface) as well described by the Joule-Thomson effect.
    Indeed they do. It's the way your air conditioner works. As the water was released under the huge pressure Walt assumed, it would be unbelievably hot, but hitting the atmosphere, it would rapidly expand into a gas, and cool dramatically.

    Here's the rub:
    That energy doesn't just magically disappear. It has to go somewhere else. How so? You probably realize that compressed refrigerant expands, cooling dramatically, thereby cooling your house. The thermal energy is given off by the refrigerant and heats the coils in which it expands, from which it heats up the air outside your house. That's why the outside unit blows hot air. It's also why you can't cool your house by opening the door of your freezer. If you thought about it for a moment, I think you'd realize how that works.

    You misunderstand.

    The earthquakes themselves ARE the ringing.

    No. As I showed you, the P and S waves from the Earthquake do go around the Earth, but are gone quickly. Here's a seismogram of a big one. Time is scaled on the X axis. Note how long it lasted:


    Interestingly, the Moon does vibrate as you suggest, but the Earth does not, primarily because of liguid or semi-liquid zones inside the Earth.

    Furthermore, shallow moonquakes lasted a remarkably long time. Once they got going, all continued more than 10 minutes. "The moon was ringing like a bell," Neal says.

    On Earth, vibrations from quakes usually die away in only half a minute. The reason has to do with chemical weathering, Neal explains: "Water weakens stone, expanding the structure of different minerals. When energy propagates across such a compressible structure, it acts like a foam sponge--it deadens the vibrations." Even the biggest earthquakes stop shaking in less than 2 minutes.

    https://www.nasa.gov/exploration/hom...oonquakes.html

    I get that people have a religious belief in that. The point is that it's neither scientifically possible, nor scripturally supported. If you have some evidence, let's see what you have.

    Saying it doesn't make it so
    So you have no evidence? That just makes you sound like you are refusing to consider the position.

    There is plenty of scientific, testable evidence for the Hydroplate theory.
    Notice that the attempt to explain where all that heat went was completely wrong. Start with that.

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    Seismologists use the time interval between the arrival of the P waves and the S waves to determine how far away the epicenter (location on the surface directly above the focus of the earthquake) is. The amplitude of the waves, relative to the distance, tells you the Richter scale magnitude of the earthquake. If you have three seismograms from relatively distant seismographs, you can use triangulation to find the epicenter.

    This is a pretty cool lab, one that even middle school students can do well.
    https://www.fusd1.org/cms/lib/AZ0100...ke_Searcha.doc

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