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Thread: Chance or Design (Evolution or Creation)

  1. #121
    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    That belief system also often involves the belief that life can come from non-life
    God says life was brought forth by the earth, air, and waters. You think those are alive, or do you think God is wrong?
    This message is hidden because ...

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    Over 750 post club 7djengo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Evolutionary theory isn't about the way life began. Even Darwin just suggested that God made the first living things.(last sentence in his 1878 edition of On the Origin of Species)
    Oh, yeah, because, in the thinking of everybody who understands the English language, the word, ORIGIN, has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the way anything BEGAN, and the word, SPECIES, has nothing, whatsoever, to do with LIFE. Bravo!

    What, then, would you say your "evolutionary theory" IS ABOUT?

    Your "evolutionary theory" is supposed to be about the way at least SOME life began, is it not? For instance, when Darwin cheerleaders say "Dinosaurs evolved into birds", do you wish to tell us that they are NOT claiming something about the way the life OF ALL BIRDS began?

    So, about WHICH LIFE are you talking when you say "Evolutionary theory isn't about the way life began"?

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    Over 750 post club 7djengo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    God says life was brought forth by the earth, air, and waters. You think those are alive, or do you think God is wrong?
    What (if anything) do you mean, here, when you say that "life was brought forth by the earth, air, and waters"?

    Would you like to tell us that "Water evolved into fish"?

  4. #124
    Over 750 post club 7djengo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    If you take the Bible literally,
    Speaking of literalness, what (if anything) would you literally mean by saying "Dinosaurs evolved into birds", as many other Darwin cheerleaders like to say?

    What would you say it is for one thing to literally "evolve into" another thing?

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post

    Again, the creationist term "junk DNA" misleads you to think all of that is without a function.
    You're brazenly lying against creationists.

    Please directly quote the exact words of the creationist(s) to whom you are referring, here, wherein you imagine that these creationists are calling some DNA, "junk DNA", and claiming that it is "without a function".

    I just now quote-mined the internet to find out that, according to Scientific American, some geneticist named Susumu Ohno coined the phrase, "junk DNA"--"to describe all noncoding sections of a genome..." Would you say Ohno was a creationist? Please tell us, Professor.

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  7. #126
    Toxic Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    God says life was brought forth by the earth, air, and waters. You think those are alive, or do you think God is wrong?
    Of course, it's Barbarian referencing scripture, so you can be certain of one thing: It's wrong.

    Then God said, ďLet the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earthĒ; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, ďLet the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.Ē So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
    Genesis 1:11-‬12, ‬20-‬21 NKJV

    Also, the Bible says God placed the sun and moon after creating plants. But don't look at that. Barbarian doesn't want you looking at that. Just the stuff he can pretend preaches his religion of Evolutionism.
    Last edited by Stripe; July 17th, 2019 at 08:15 PM.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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  9. #127
    Body part Right Divider's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Some crazy people (Darwinian's) think that corruption means improvement, or corruption means progress.... or some such idiocy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  11. #128
    Over 6000 post club 6days's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian
    ev∑o∑lu∑tion-ism
    /ˌevəˈlo͞oSH(ə)n/izm..
    Evolutionism... Advocacy of the common ancestry belief system. Creationism... Advocacy of 'in six days God created the heavens and the Earth and everything in them'..
    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian
    Evolutionism is the idea of a fish becoming a philospher. If that every happened, evolutionary theory would be in big trouble...
    common ancestry beliefs involves things much more bizarre than 'fish' that can evolve into philosophers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian
    Evolutionary theory isn't about the way life began.
    Nobody said otherwise. What I did say was that evolutionism often involves the belief that life can come from non-life. (Chemical evolution). Many also believe in stellar evolution, which takes on many forms... Some have said that nothing caused everything. Some think it was a cold whoosh... Or a big bounce.
    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian
    Junk DNA" is a creationist term for what scientists call "non-coding DNA."
    Evolutionists called it junk DNA...or, flotsam.... Or, jetsam. They promoted the idea of junk DNA to try and sell their belief system. Science is in the process of unraveling that false belief.
    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian
    The idea that vestigial organs are useless is another creationist belief...
    You are slipping into your old habits of being dishonest. Evolutionists tried to sell their belief system by claiming that the appendix was "useless".
    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian
    And it's been that way since Darwin, who commented that many "rudimentary" organs had evolved new uses.
    In contrast God's word tells us that we are fearfully and wonderfully made.
    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian
    It's because evolutionary theory shows that there are no biological human races.
    it isn't quite so easy to rewrite history as you wish. Scientific racism flourished after Darwin. As Stephen Jay Gould, a famous evolutionist "Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1850, but they increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory."
    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian
    Endogenous retroviruses are just RNA viruses that got inserted into animal genomes.
    Shoddy conclusions like that were based in evolutionism as opposed to biblical creation. If so called ERV's have similar functionality between organisms, it points to our Creator. And...science continues to show design and functionality (such as regulating human transcription on a large scale) in what evolutionist once dismissed as parasitic junk sequences.

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  13. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Speaking of literalness, what (if anything) would you literally mean by saying "Dinosaurs evolved into birds", as many other Darwin cheerleaders like to say?

    What would you say it is for one thing to literally "evolve into" another thing?
    I would say that I donít have the foggiest clue if birds evolved into dinosaurs or not. Biological science is not my field of expertise. I have some knowledge of science, and the scientific method and I respect it.

    In order to offer my opinion on whether or not dinosaurs evolved into birds, I would have to spend a lot of time studying science and evolution. Then, after I had considered all the facts available to me, I could form an opinion. Until then, itís possible that dinosaurs did evolve into birds and itís possible that they did not in my opinion.

    We can be very confident that dinosaurs existed long before we did based on our current information and we know that something killed them because they no longer exist. We know that millions of species exist today so all life was not extinguished in that event. How all that life came to be
    what it is now is beyond my knowledge so I canít say that I know one way or the other.

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  15. #130
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Spoiler
    Neither Shannon nor you understand genetics. According to Shannon and yourself it seems, a flat tire on your car (also bad back's, vision problems, genetic diseases, cancer, leukemia, increasing psychiatric problems etc can be considered new information. Mutations only corrupt pre-existing information.


    I accept... Without the scriptural gymnastics that evolutionists use...
    Spoiler

    *God's word tells us that death entered our world due to first Adams sin. Romans 5, 1st Corinthians 15 Genesis 3 and more.
    * God's Word tells us pain, suffering, thorns and sorrow are a result of human sin.
    * I accept Jesus who declared humanity existing from a time near the foundation of the world and the beginning of creation. Genesis 5, Mark 6, Luke 11
    * God's word tell us that Eve was created from the side of Adam. Genesis 2
    * God's Word tells us 'in six days he created the heavens and the Earth and everything in them and rested the 7th Day'.
    Because you don't understand genetics you are confusing different concepts. Fitness and information are two different things. Organisms often can be more fit in specific environments but have less genetic diversity / less genetic information than parent populations. You obviously didn't realize that you're random cut and paste had nothing to do with Crows statement that every mutation represents one genetic death... Mutations do not increase sophisticated and meaningful information. (Again, you are confusing different concepts)

    Evolutionism is advocacy of the common ancestry belief system by evolutionists who believe that microbes can become microbiologists. Evolutionism also often involves the belief that life can come from non-life, or various beliefs involving stellar evolution.
    Adaptation, speciation, genetic drift does not have a direction per se. Evolutionism however is the belief that given enough time and enough mutations, a 'fish'can become a philosopher. Evolutionism / Darwinism requires vast editions of complex, sophisticated 'software.
    Crow is not discussing doctrine. He is trying to justify his belief in common ancestry against the evidence. He criticizes geneticists who invoke various forms of epistasis... Admits that truncation is unrealistic, but goes on to suggest that quasi truncation can solve the paradox. The evidence is consistent with the biblical model... A created genome that has been subjected to several thousand years of corruption.

    Spoiler
    BTW... It is interesting that geneticists Crow has admitted "our Stone age ancestors" greater fitness / viability than modern humans. Why? Genetic load is increasing. He has estimated a 1-2% decrease in viability with each new generation.
    Relaxed selection is just another of the hypothetical and unrealistic rescue devices attempting to make data fit the common ancestry belief system. Genetic load increases in all populations that have a high mutation rate in relationship to reproductive rate.

    It is exciting times for Christians as genetics helps confirm the truth of scripture. We have a perfectly created genome with only a few thousand years of genetic load / corruption.
    I had read this recently in Answers. It is a medical doctor discussing biblically why we cannot accept even 'theistic evolution.' Good read and his bible challenge is solid (and "challenging").
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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  17. #131
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    You've mentioned some things that are actually not part of evolutionary theory, but are misconceptions causes by "evolutionism":

    ev∑o∑lu∑tion-ism
    /ˌevəˈlo͞oSH(ə)n/izm

    noun
    noun: evolutionism;
    1. 1.
    the stories creationists tell about evolutionary theory, to avoid discussing the real theory.
    "evolutionism is calling God a liar"
    2. 2.
    the numerous misconceptions creationists have about evolution
    "evolutionism is about the origin of life"
    synonyms: straw man, diversion, misconception

    This kind of sound-byte just isn't helpful, regardless if it is rebuttal.
    Evolutionism (from the 19th century. If anyone is going to take anyone else seriously, it is going to have to be without this kind of debate ploy. It just makes it so people will question everything else said by the person doing it. That's why if even a tenth of retribution, it ruins credibility. The natural response is to ask "what else isn't really a quote or true?"
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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  19. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    This kind of sound-byte just isn't helpful, regardless if it is rebuttal.
    The invitation remains open:
    The theory of evolution is that all living things are descended from a universal common ancestor by means of random mutations and natural selection.

    There are a number of challenges to this idea, the top one being the fact that entropy sends things toward decay. It doesn't build things.

    Darwinists are free to engage sensibly over these issues. That would involve accepting what it is we disagree with, not changing the definition of evolution to "change," which isn't a theory. That would also require them to respond to the challenge, not turn it into something else (which ironically also runs counter to their ideas).
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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  21. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    The invitation remains open:
    The theory of evolution is that all living things are descended from a universal common ancestor by means of random mutations and natural selection.

    There are a number of challenges to this idea, the top one being the fact that entropy sends things toward decay. It doesn't build things.
    Tony Reed just HAD to investigate:

    Genetic Entropy

  22. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    Tony Reed just HAD to investigate:
    Yay, user name is back with nothing to contribute.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

  23. #135
    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    This kind of sound-byte just isn't helpful, regardless if it is rebuttal.
    Evolutionism (from the 19th century.
    Evolutionary theory is from the 19th century. Evolutionism is the collection of misconceptions people have about evolution.

    Hence, we see people who believe "evolutionism" who think evolution is about the origin of life, denies the Bible, and all those other misconceptions. Just as creationism isn't creation, neither is evolutionism, evolutionary theory.

    If anyone is going to take anyone else seriously, it is going to have to be without this kind of debate ploy. It just makes it so people will question everything else said by the person doing it.
    If we are to make any progress at all, we have to separate what evolution is, from what evolutionary theory is, from what so many uninformed people believe they are. Hence, "evolutionism." The first is an observed phenomenon,the second is the theory that explains it, and the third is the collection of misunderstandings about it.

    And there's one other misconception; common descent isn't evolution; it's a consequence of evolution. This is why one gets so many incredulous responses, when it's pointed out that evolution is observed constantly. Evolution is merely a change in allele frequencies in a population over time. Darwinian evolution includes increasing fitness in a population by random variation and natural selection, as well as the evolution of new taxa.

    I think you'll find that most creationist organizations now admit everything but common descent of all living things on Earth; as one group puts it, Darwin sees one bush of common descent, and they see many bushes.

    Rather than a single common ancestor of all life, the Genesis account suggests an “orchard” of life arising from separate created kinds. The similarities at the top of this evolutionary tree may indicate actual common ancestry within the orchard of created kinds.
    https://answersingenesis.org/theory-...-orchard-life/

    This admission is often vigorously denied by many, who don't know how creationists have come to accommodate new evidence for evolution.

    That's why if even a tenth of retribution, it ruins credibility. The natural response is to ask "what else isn't really a quote or true?"
    Retribution isn't the point. If we don't have a common vocabulary, we get nowhere. Many scientists think that the obfuscation is intentional. I don't think it is, for most creationists. As you might have noticed here, they are often incredulous when they learn that the theory is not about the origin of life.
    This message is hidden because ...

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