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Thread: Chance or Design (Evolution or Creation)

  1. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver
    Christianity accepts the Old Testament, where you get your creation story
    Christianity IS the old Testament. Christ and the cross make no sense without Genesis. Whenever Jesus was challenged, he would refer to the old Testament as His absolute source of Truth... And he most commonly referenced the writings of Moses.

    Re periodic table... It provides clear evidence of our creator. "Atoms are not chaotic in their assembly but have an orderly arrangement in the way that electrons are added to orbitals, and protons and neutrons in the nucleus. This accounts for their periodic and predictable attributes which a God of order has created."https://creation.com/atoms-and-gods-order

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  3. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Christianity IS the old Testament. Christ and the cross make no sense without Genesis. Whenever Jesus was challenged, he would refer to the old Testament as His absolute source of Truth... And he most commonly referenced the writings of Moses.
    He also corrected some of the wrong things in Moses like divorce, eye for an eye and kill your enemies.

    Re periodic table... It provides clear evidence of our creator. "Atoms are not chaotic in their assembly but have an orderly arrangement in the way that electrons are added to orbitals, and protons and neutrons in the nucleus. This accounts for their periodic and predictable attributes which a God of order has created."https://creation.com/atoms-and-gods-order
    I tend to you agree that the precise and nearly infinite nature of the atom and the compounds formed from atoms are amazing. I just have to be honest that is your bias and my own. If you think about it, we are not scientific or logical in our thinking when we assume God exists. That is a belief of ours.
    There is no scientific proof of God, and there’s no way to test it scientifically. To those who don’t believe there is a God, some of us claiming that there is does not qualify as scientific evidence, it qualifies as anecdotal evidence....which is not really considered evidence.

    It’s kind of like Bigfoot, yet one could argue that there is more evidence for Bigfoot than God because of footprints, some dna evidence, and some possible photographic evidence. We don’t have that for God.

    That is not to say we are wrong. I believe I’m right in believing that God exists because of my own subjective experiences. But, since I trust myself...I believe my experiences. But I don’t pretend my word qualifies for scientific evidence.

    If the people who have seen Bigfoot or Sasquatch are right.....and eventually this is proven by the discovery of a body....then it does show that anecdotal evidence can be factual in some cases, and this has been shown in other avenues. But, there have been a lot of anecdotal evidence that has been shown to be fabricated intentionally or not.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

  4. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    He also corrected some of the wrong things in Moses like divorce, eye for an eye and kill your enemies.
    Rather, he corrected the common understanding of the law, not the law itself.

    Not once did Jesus repeal any of the Mosaic laws.

    I tend to you agree that the precise and nearly infinite nature of the atom and the compounds formed from atoms are amazing. I just have to be honest that is your bias and my own. If you think about it, we are not scientific or logical in our thinking when we assume God exists.
    Assuming that God does not exist is irrational, and leads to madness.

    That is a belief of ours.
    There is no scientific proof of God,
    The proof is everywhere.

    Literally.

    and thereís no way to test it scientifically.
    To those who donít believe there is a God, some of us claiming that there is does not qualify as scientific evidence, it qualifies as anecdotal evidence....which is not really considered evidence.

    Itís kind of like Bigfoot, yet one could argue that there is more evidence for Bigfoot than God because of footprints, some dna evidence, and some possible photographic evidence. We donít have that for God.

    That is not to say we are wrong. I believe Iím right in believing that God exists because of my own subjective experiences. But, since I trust myself...I believe my experiences. But I donít pretend my word qualifies for scientific evidence.

    If the people who have seen Bigfoot or Sasquatch are right.....and eventually this is proven by the discovery of a body....then it does show that anecdotal evidence can be factual in some cases, and this has been shown in other avenues. But, there have been a lot of anecdotal evidence that has been shown to be fabricated intentionally or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver
    He also corrected some of the wrong things in Moses like divorce, eye for an eye and kill your enemies.
    @JudgeRightly answered you, but are you suggesting you accept the clear teaching of Jesus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver
    I tend to you agree that the precise and nearly infinite nature of the atom.....
    "Nearly infinite"? That suggests you believe atoms are finite... That they popped into existence creating order without any cause..... And magically created everything?
    It seems much more logical and scientific to believe an infinitely existing intelligence created order and caused everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver
    There is no scientific proof of God...
    There is scientific EVIDENCE of God. And the Bible says the evidence is strong enough that we can KNOW. I would suggest it is unscientific to believe that nothing caused everything.... or that anything can begin to exist without a cause. the most logical and scientific explanation of everything is an eternally existing intelligence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver
    It’s kind of like Bigfoot, yet one could argue that there is more evidence for Bigfoot than God
    You could also argue that the Earth is flat from your perspective.

    Your argument is illogical for a couple reasons. False analogy... There are not thousands of PhD scientists claiming evidence supports the existence of Bigfoot. (And if there was, of course we should pay attention to that). There are thousands of PhD scientists who claim the existence for a Creator God is compelling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Rather, he corrected the common understanding of the law, not the law itself.Not once did Jesus repeal any of the Mosaic laws.
    Yes....he did. See Matthew chapter 5 verses 38 and following.

    Assuming that God does not exist is irrational, and leads to madness.
    Disagree. A person would have to have a reason to believe that God exists in the first place to even think such a thing. You can search the beliefs of First Nations peoples to see that they all believe different things. Most are animists.

    The proof is everywhere.

    Literally.
    Please present proof that God exists.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    There is scientific EVIDENCE of God. And the Bible says the evidence is strong enough that we can KNOW.
    Please present scientific evidence of God's existence.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    @JudgeRightly answered you, but are you suggesting you accept the clear teaching of Jesus?
    As it pertains to my point.....yes I do.

    "Nearly infinite"? That suggests you believe atoms are finite... That they popped into existence creating order without any cause..... And magically created everything?
    It seems much more logical and scientific to believe an infinitely existing intelligence created order and caused everything.
    Infinity is undefined mathematically, it can't be known, only conceptualized. But, unstable atoms are finite, they will eventually decay into another element. Stable atoms are eternal as we understand it....yes.

    You could also argue that the Earth is flat from your perspective.
    No you can't. I accept the evidence demonstrating that the Earth is spheroid.

    Your argument is illogical for a couple reasons. False analogy... There are not thousands of PhD scientists claiming evidence supports the existence of Bigfoot. (And if there was, of course we should pay attention to that).
    No, there are not thousands, but there are some. So my argument is not illogical.

    There are thousands of PhD scientists who claim the existence for a Creator God is compelling.
    I disagree with this claim, but I'm not going to ask you to prove it. Instead, I'll wait to examine the scientific evidence for God's existence that I asked you and JR to provide.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Yes....he did. See Matthew chapter 5 verses 38 and following.
    Taking verses out of context is why you don't understand.

    No, Jesus was not repealing the laws.

    He was explaining how to act in the coming kingdom.

    Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. - Matthew 5:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...5&version=NKJV

    Inherit what?

    The earth. Not heaven.

    Disagree. A person would have to have a reason to believe that God exists in the first place to even think such a thing.
    Try thinking it through, and instead of assuming that there is a God who created everything and loves His creation, assume that there is no God, and see where it gets you.

    It leads to madness, rejection of morality, and harm.

    You can search the beliefs of First Nations
    Who?

    Please present proof that God exists.
    I present to you, drumroll please...

    The universe, and all that is within it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    There are thousands of PhD scientists who claim the existence for a Creator God is compelling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    I disagree with this claim
    https://kgov.com/scientist-doubting-darwin

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post

    The universe, and all that is within it.
    Sigh.

    As I expected. You really don't know what constitutes scientific evidence. Therefore, you should not make claims about it. Instead, you should stick with offering your opinions and/or beliefs.

    A good way to do this is to begin statements with something like...... "In my opinion....."

    Or, "I believe that......"

    That way you won't be claiming things which are not true.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    For the purposes of this thread, I will call my religion, ďRejective Knowism.Ē
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Rejective Knowist believe that God exists
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Please present scientific evidence of God's existence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    For the purposes of this thread, I will call my religion, ďRejective Knowism.Ē
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Rejective Knowist believe that God exists
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Please present proof that God exists.
    Bravo!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    You really don't know what constitutes scientific evidence.
    Why don't you just tell us, now, exactly what (if anything) you would say constitutes whatever you would call "scientific evidence" for the proposition, P?

    Oh, also, while you're at it, why don't you tell us exactly what (if anything) you would say distinguishes whatever you would call "scientific evidence" for the proposition, P, from whatever you would call "evidence" for the proposition, P?

    And, again, why don't you tell us exactly what (if anything) you would say distinguishes whatever you would call "proof" for the proposition, P, from whatever you would call "evidence" for the proposition, P, and from whatever you would call "scientific evidence" for the proposition, P?

    Have fun stonewalling against these questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    You can search the beliefs of First Nations peoples ...
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Who?
    Guyver's a canuck!


    That explains the weird aspie vibe I've been getting from him

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver
    Please present scientific evidence of God's existence.
    The periodic table (and hundreds of other things.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver
    As it pertains to my point.....yes I do. (Accepting teachings of Jesus)
    So you reject the teachings of Jesus that contradict your point?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver
    Stable atoms are eternal as we understand it....yes.
    So we agree that the cause of everything existed eternally. If you don't think that evidence points to an eternally existing intelligence, you are wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver
    No you can't. I accept the evidence demonstrating that the Earth is spheroid.
    I am surprised that you might argue for Bigfoot but not a flat earth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver
    ... there are some. (PhD scientist to argue that Bigfoot exists) So my argument is not illogical.
    Your argument is now more logical than it was before. You seem to suggest that if there is such a thing as a PhD scientist who says there is evidence to support beliefs in Bigfoot, that should be accepted, and we should ignore evidence claims from thousands of PhD scientist regarding our creator.
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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  19. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    The periodic table (and hundreds of other things.)
    The periodic table and everything that exists shows its nature and can be observed or understood to a certain degree. The fact that a thing is specific and precise doesn’t necessarily imply that God did it, because it is possible that there is no God and everything we think is God is a product of our own minds, superstitions, religious beliefs, etc.

    That’s why I’m distinguishing scientific fact from opinion or beliefs. Yet, I’ve already stated my opinion on that point so there’s no need to say it again. You disagree and that’s fine, but I just think your point is incorrect. Things that are made don’t necessarily require a Maker.

    For example, take a puddle of water from a hole in the street. That puddle of water seems perfectly designed to hold the water that fills it, and is home to billions of microorganisms. Like us they fight for survival in this world.

    But there home was not designed, it is a pure result of natural forces that we understand by science and the laws of physics.





    So we agree that the cause of everything existed eternally. If you don't think that evidence points to an eternally existing intelligence, you are wrong.
    If you would be specific about evidence, maybe I could agree. But it seems you assume that everything that exists is evidence of intelligence, and that may not be true. Not to be argumentative but to be factual. We don’t really know where we came from or why we’re here, or where we go when we die. We think we do. And we all think differently about it so no one really knows.

    I agree that things which are have the appearance of existing eternally, and indicate the real possibility of supreme intelligence. Yes, I agree. But I don’t believe it can be scientifically proven because of the nature of science that requires observation to be highly confident about a thing....in general.

    Einstein’s solution to the red shift of mars all happened in his mind. But his theories later held up under experimentation and observation.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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