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Thread: Law Vs. Grace

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    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Law Vs. Grace

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post

    Is it possible to read 'rod' as 'guidance?'

    Proverbs 22:6
    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    I made that argument here years ago. It’s not a popular interpretation with the “beat the devil out of them” crowd.
    Tough thread, btw, trying to follow: Death Penalty, Divorce, and Child-rearing. Seems to be a difference between 'letter of the law' vs. "spirit of it?" I'm not sure Christians need be too literal with O.T. instruction specifically because we are under grace and 'all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable." I'm not advocating a disregard for God's laws, but rather the part that reminds us that all the laws and prophets are based on loving one another and God.

    For me, those who promote the death penalty are loving/safe-keeping society. Those against it, promoting loving people as well. It then becomes a needed discussion of which is most loving of God and man. Marriage laws and child-rearing laws are also based on how best to show love.

    If I had to do it over again, I'd not have spanked my kids. They didn't need pain as a motivator. They needed guidance and love was a greater motivator in their lives. I think in these days of grace, that love is the better, yet some parents have told me they 'needed' spankings growing up. Perhaps one size doesn't fit all concerning pain as a correction.

    Dobson said that some parents should never spank, but rather go to other correction means, as one instance where spanking, for them, becomes violence rather than help.

    "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27

    We sometimes can get so caught up in the 'rules' that we forget what they ultimately were about or what most specifically they were for.

    Matthew 22:40
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    If I had to do it over again, I'd not have spanked my kids. They didn't need pain as a motivator. They needed guidance and love was a greater motivator in their lives. I think in these days of grace, that love is the better, yet some parents have told me they 'needed' spankings growing up. Perhaps one size doesn't fit all concerning pain as a correction.
    I was spanked as a child, and felt loved. Explanations came with those spankings.
    I still thank God for having given me my parents (both long deceased).
    Now, spanking isn't exactly the same as a beating, or abusive corporal punishments, imho.
    Many children are indeed abused.

    However, with political correctness going nuts - people tend to go overboard now, and lump all spankings with abuse. I don't think we are even allowed to yell at children anymore.

    Lol. I remember a mom trying to put her pre-school daughter's shoes on, and the child slapped the mom. Mom said, "Please don't hit me..." The daughter did it repeatedly and mom kept saying "please, stop....". I had to bite my tongue and keep my eyes from rolling!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Tough thread, btw, trying to follow: Death Penalty, Divorce, and Child-rearing. Seems to be a difference between 'letter of the law' vs. "spirit of it?" I'm not sure Christians need be too literal with O.T. instruction specifically because we are under grace and 'all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable." I'm not advocating a disregard for God's laws, but rather the part that reminds us that all the laws and prophets are based on loving one another and God.

    For me, those who promote the death penalty are loving/safe-keeping society. Those against it, promoting loving people as well. It then becomes a needed discussion of which is most loving of God and man. Marriage laws and child-rearing laws are also based on how best to show love.

    If I had to do it over again, I'd not have spanked my kids. They didn't need pain as a motivator. They needed guidance and love was a greater motivator in their lives. I think in these days of grace, that love is the better, yet some parents have told me they 'needed' spankings growing up. Perhaps one size doesn't fit all concerning pain as a correction.

    Dobson said that some parents should never spank, but rather go to other correction means, as one instance where spanking, for them, becomes violence rather than help.

    "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27

    We sometimes can get so caught up in the 'rules' that we forget what they ultimately were about or what most specifically they were for.

    Matthew 22:40
    i spanked mine, but not more than a dozen times

    never when i was angry and always with a discussion beforehand and after

    it worked for me and it worked for them

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    Quote Originally Posted by betsy123 View Post
    I was spanked as a child, and felt loved. Explanations came with those spankings.
    I still thank God for having given me my parents (both long deceased).
    Now, spanking isn't exactly the same as a beating, or abusive corporal punishments, imho.
    Many children are indeed abused.

    However, with political correctness going nuts - people tend to go overboard now, and lump all spankings with abuse. I don't think we are even allowed to yell at children anymore.

    Lol. I remember a mom trying to put her pre-school daughter's shoes on, and the child slapped the mom. Mom said, "Please don't hit me..." The daughter did it repeatedly and mom kept saying "please, stop....". I had to bite my tongue and keep my eyes from rolling!
    I heard a story from Pastor Enyart who heard it from someone else.

    Whenever the child did something wrong, the mother put herself in timeout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    They didn't need pain as a motivator. They needed guidance and love was a greater motivator in their lives.
    Couldn't agree more, Lon.

    I think in these days of grace, that love is the better, yet some parents have told me they 'needed' spankings growing up. Perhaps one size doesn't fit all concerning pain as a correction.
    I'm sorry, but I can't do the grace/law part of this. I know how important it is to you and I respect that, but I just can't.

    I do agree that spanking can be socially acceptable and non-traumatic, but to me - the line is so very fine.

    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Tough thread, btw, trying to follow: Death Penalty, Divorce, and Child-rearing. Seems to be a difference between 'letter of the law' vs. "spirit of it?" I'm not sure Christians need be too literal with O.T. instruction specifically because we are under grace and 'all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable." I'm not advocating a disregard for God's laws, but rather the part that reminds us that all the laws and prophets are based on loving one another and God.

    For me, those who promote the death penalty are loving/safe-keeping society. Those against it, promoting loving people as well. It then becomes a needed discussion of which is most loving of God and man. Marriage laws and child-rearing laws are also based on how best to show love.
    The death penalty is one of those things in which it is important to not lose sight of the forest for the trees. The purpose of it is to foster a respect for life (and corresponding justice). And if murder doesn't warrant the taking of a life, then it follows that life is cheapened. It isn't vengeance if assessed consistently as the response to murder. The love God has is a jealous love; so to emulate that (with respect to every life), love for man necessarily implies that one uphold the God-given life that each man possesses - and recognizing the image of God (however marred) that comes with each life. One may personally forgive another who murdered them or a loved one (just ask Stephen) and it not be incongruous for the murderer to suffer the due penalty for his actions (just ask David).

    Marriage and divorce are sticky wickets, but it is telling that divorce was granted only because of the hardness of man's heart. From the beginning, this was not so...Which leads to the question, what hardness led man to desire a split? Today we hear all sorts of excuses about abuse, infidelity etc...(in no way minimizing those things) and I can't help but think that those are exactly what Jesus meant by hardness. So was the hardness a vestige of man's desire for independence from God coming out in his desire for incomplete unity with the opposite sex? It seems the Lord was saying that God simply conceded on the point of adultery to give some (however temporary) relief as unfaithfulness justified severing the bond (as it did in Eden and as God did with much of Israel prior to Christ). Man thinks the solution is severing and starting over. But God put up - for centuries - with a group that (by enlarge) had no time for Him in any sense of the meaning of that phrase. So when we speak of the love of God, there is very little in that to attract the sinner if he has to reflect that in his marriage. Just a thought. Jesus said love your enemy so you will be children of your Father in heaven. There were no "out" clauses. Even God's divorce of the majority of Israel was to be to their ultimate salvation (Lam 3:31). So if one wants to address marriage from a societal standpoint, love does not imply benefit to one's self - and it may be that the greater (ultimate) good is served by enduring what seems unendurable. As murder cheapens life, so divorce cheapens marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    If I had to do it over again, I'd not have spanked my kids. They didn't need pain as a motivator. They needed guidance and love was a greater motivator in their lives. I think in these days of grace, that love is the better, yet some parents have told me they 'needed' spankings growing up. Perhaps one size doesn't fit all concerning pain as a correction.

    Dobson said that some parents should never spank, but rather go to other correction means, as one instance where spanking, for them, becomes violence rather than help.

    "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27

    We sometimes can get so caught up in the 'rules' that we forget what they ultimately were about or what most specifically they were for.

    Matthew 22:40
    I think you're right about spanking. Not every child is the same and even in evangelism different approaches are needed :

    And of some have compassion, making a difference:
    And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

    Jude 1:22-23

    Having said that, I think it makes it more situational then personal. In other words - while there may be those that respond better without physical repercussions, even they may need a physical response in certain (very limited circumstances). But love certainly requires knowledge and relating (appropriately) so I would agree that corporal punishment is not necessarily a given.
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    Couldn't agree more, Lon.



    I'm sorry, but I can't do the grace/law part of this. I know how important it is to you and I respect that, but I just can't.

    I do agree that spanking can be socially acceptable and non-traumatic, but to me - the line is so very fine.
    Had to reread what you mean. As with Betsy above, the response was positive and thus I believe love covers and heals. As with her story of the child slapping the mother, there is already a 'pain' problem and perhaps a slap back could cause an immediate stop and desist. Oddly, this reminds me of "Black Lives Matter" discussion where we are discussing whether violent protest is ever appropriate. To me? Very similar if not the same discussion. "Faithful are the wounds of a friend" doesn't have to mean a whip by any necessity and seems to be more about discipline in whatever form. The Apostle Paul talks of an athlete buffeting his/her body. It is in this light that I see the Proverbs 23:13

    I like and appreciate Nikolai's comments:
    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    I think you're right about spanking. Not every child is the same and even in evangelism different approaches are needed :

    And of some have compassion, making a difference:
    And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

    Jude 1:22-23

    Having said that, I think it makes it more situational then personal. In other words - while there may be those that respond better without physical repercussions, even they may need a physical response in certain (very limited circumstances). But love certainly requires knowledge and relating (appropriately) so I would agree that corporal punishment is not necessarily a given.
    I too, was spanked often as a child and I agree it did me little harm. Violence happening around me did an incredible amount of worse damage. I've made no secret I suffer PTSD. My father was a murderer and tried to murder each of us kids (thankfully in a drunken stupor or he would have succeeded). That's wholly different than my mother spanking me, often. Did I need it? No, not that often, but it did teach me respect and what I was going to face in the rest of the world.

    I yet believe those kids not spanked is perfectly fine, it is rather discipline that leads to self-discipline that is the goal.

    Some data I've read supports Town's data, and others are inconclusive.

    -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Developmental stages -appropriate training of a child

    This is part of my degree, which is concerned primarily with what and when Children are ready to learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    I heard a story...

    Whenever the child did something wrong, the mother put herself in timeout.
    Basically, this mother was trying to teach something beyond the child's ability to grasp at that age.

    Certainly knowing what works best for children at each of their developmental stages is helpful.

    Two that are helpful to me are:

    Piaget's developmental stages of ability/readiness to learn

    and in connection

    Honor-level stages of discipline

    Neither addresses spanking or not, although spanking is reserved for lower levels as any would imagine (we generally don't spank teenagers for instance). In JudgeRightly's post above, the child just is not capable of learning empathy until the concrete/formal stages of development.

    I've seen parents trying to explain things to a child that they cannot grasp until they are much older and mentally developed.

    In the first stage, and it is argued whether the second stage, spanking has been shown to work, but should not be the only discipline measure and should decrease past 8 and stop at about 10 when they begin concrete operational stages.

    The idea of all discipline is to 'assist' a child in their developmental stages, thus certain disciplines can thwart growth (like trying to get a 3 year old to 'empathize' or spanking a teen).
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    TOL Legend annabenedetti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Had to reread what you mean. As with Betsy above, the response was positive and thus I believe love covers and heals. As with her story of the child slapping the mother, there is already a 'pain' problem and perhaps a slap back could cause an immediate stop and desist. Oddly, this reminds me of "Black Lives Matter" discussion where we are discussing whether violent protest is ever appropriate. To me? Very similar if not the same discussion
    I don't see how showing a child what they're doing wrong by doing it back to them (and likely harder) teaches the child respect for the parent.

    There's a certain kind of learning that works like that, but it's in a sibling hierarchy, where one sibling, finding out that hitting another sibling will get a much harder hit in return, might temper their next inclination to hit, and that teaches them something about life.

    But with a parent... no. I wouldn't kick/trip/shove/pinch/slap a child who'd done the same to me or one of the other kids. I always felt I had to set an example for the kind of behavior I expected from them.

    Was I a saintly mom who never raised her voice? No. When I got mad, they knew it. I used words (and the words weren't abusive, so important), but there was never any doubt when mom wasn't happy.
    Last edited by annabenedetti; June 11th, 2019 at 03:31 PM. Reason: typo

    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

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    TOL Legend annabenedetti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I too, was spanked often as a child and I agree it did me little harm. Violence happening around me did an incredible amount of worse damage. I've made no secret I suffer PTSD. My father was a murderer and tried to murder each of us kids (thankfully in a drunken stupor or he would have succeeded). That's wholly different than my mother spanking me, often. Did I need it? No, not that often, but it did teach me respect and what I was going to face in the rest of the world.
    No, I didn't know about the PTSD, or if I did, somehow I didn't retain that information. I didn't know about your father, either. I'm very sorry to hear these things happened to you.

    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    I don't see how showing a child what they're doing wrong by doing it back to them (and likely harder) teaches the child respect for the parent.

    There's a certain kind of learning that works like that, but it's in a sibling hierarchy, where one sibling, finding out that hitting another sibling will get a much harder hit in return, might temper their next inclination to hit, and that teaches them something about life.

    But with a parent... no. I wouldn't kick/trip/shove/pinch/slap a child who'd done the same to me or one of the other kids. I always felt I had to set an example for the kind of behavior I expected from them.
    Yet, I'm not convinced that mom spanking me, caused me to hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    Was I a saintly mom who never raised her voice? No. When I got mad, they knew it. I used words (and the words weren't abusive, so important), but there was never any doubt when mom wasn't happy.
    I remember harsh words long after the pains of a spanking ended. My son, remembers every spanking (about 10 of them in his whole life).

    He believes he didn't need them and I'm pretty sure in hindsight he is correct. They don't seem to have a long-lasting effect, thankfully. Either way, he's a good kid (all my kids are doing very well and I'm proud of them).

    I would, at that point, say I'd rather have the impersonal spank than any harsh word. My younger brother's step mother would shout "You kids are icky! Why are you doing this to me?!" rather than spanking them.

    My prayer is this thread will help parents love, whichever way they discipline and their children will fall into the graces of love 1 Peter 4:8 (from the Apostle that messed up a LOT).
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    No, I didn't know about the PTSD, or if I did, somehow I didn't retain that information. I didn't know about your father, either. I'm very sorry to hear these things happened to you.
    Very kind. The grace of God is stronger than the worst abuses and brings incredible healing. The love of the Body of Christ, even when some others in the Body have been harsh, have been incredibly healing as well. Thank you. -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Seems to be a difference between 'letter of the law' vs. "spirit of it?"
    Men are not permitted to ignore the letter of the law in the name of the spirit.

    Unfortunately, those who call for adherence to a "spirit of the law" tend to be selling humanism.

    What they need to do is clearly set out what they mean by "spirit."

    I'm not sure Christians need be too literal with O.T. instruction specifically because we are under grace and 'all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable." I'm not advocating a disregard for God's laws, but rather the part that reminds us that all the laws and prophets are based on loving one another and God.
    All this has no place in a criminal justice system.

    For me, those who promote the death penalty are loving/safe-keeping society. Those against it, promoting loving people as well. It then becomes a needed discussion of which is most loving of God and man. Marriage laws and child-rearing laws are also based on how best to show love.
    You can wonder about the motivation behind people's ideas all you like, that's not going to change the facts: The death penalty (and corporal punishment) were put in place by God and never done away with.

    Perhaps those who say the death penalty is immoral do have their heart in the right place. However, recognizing this does nothing to advance the conversation.

    Perhaps one size doesn't fit all concerning pain as a correction.
    Some kids never need it.

    We sometimes can get so caught up in the 'rules' that we forget what they ultimately were about or what most specifically they were for.
    It's more urgent to obey the law than to know what it is for, but it might be more important to know what it's for than to obey it.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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  25. #14
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Men are not permitted to ignore the letter of the law in the name of the spirit.

    Unfortunately, those who call for adherence to a "spirit of the law" tend to be selling humanism.
    Yes. I advocate it only insomuch as scripture does i.e. the Sabbath was made for man, and not the other way around.
    Our liberty in Christ Jesus our Lord, is not to be used against our Lord. Your warning/concern is well received and thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    What they need to do is clearly set out what they mean by "spirit."

    All this has no place in a criminal justice system.
    There was a man, convicted of theft who became a Christian. While waiting trial, he began repaying all those he'd stolen from as well as working off debt to those who would allow it. The judge remanded him to time-served and continued service to those he yet had to pay. I believe it was Oklahoma law that countered the judge and put the man in prison for ten years.

    My question: to what purpose? Can the criminal justice system be wrong at times? I'm not sure if we mean 'grace' at that point, however.
    Is the three-strikes, grace? Or justice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    You can wonder about the motivation behind people's ideas all you like, that's not going to change the facts: The death penalty (and corporal punishment) were put in place by God and never done away with.
    This thread is more about 'us' acting in grace. When it comes to the death penalty, I think Nikolai said it well, that if we allow a murder to go free, then we cheapen life as a society. I've also added that family has a right to demand a tooth for a tooth. I'm just saying I'm not for the death penalty. It is a personal stance, I support people who support the penalty while not embracing it for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Perhaps those who say the death penalty is immoral do have their heart in the right place. However, recognizing this does nothing to advance the conversation.
    At this time, this law is done state by state, so I think it always a helpful conversation as we are involved in some of the law decisions. I appreciate your input.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Some kids never need it.
    I agree with you, but with the 'letter of the law' Proverbs says if we spare the rod, we spoil.

    It could be interpretation but it literally says if we beat them, they will not die. Looking at kings and the rich, we see discipline problems, and in that light, perhaps there is indication of David's wayward sons in hindsight (Absalom, Absalom). I've heard it said: You can beat the hell out of someone, or love the hell out of them. Perhaps both, but my children also didn't need it. It is a tough subject when trying to follow the intent of the scriptures.



    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    It's more urgent to obey the law than to know what it is for, but it might be more important to know what it's for than to obey it.
    Again, I'm with you in agreement. Thank you for input here. It isn't one of the easier discussions. Appreciate your thoughtful post. -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    There was a man, convicted of theft who became a Christian. While waiting trial, he began repaying all those he'd stolen from as well as working off debt to those who would allow it. The judge remanded him to time-served and continued service to those he yet had to pay. I believe it was Oklahoma law that countered the judge and put the man in prison for ten years.

    My question: to what purpose? Can the criminal justice system be wrong at times? I'm not sure if we mean 'grace' at that point, however.
    Is the three-strikes, grace? Or justice?
    There's almost nothing that our justice system gets right.

    I agree with you, but with the 'letter of the law' Proverbs says if we spare the rod, we spoil.
    I don't think it's saying that kids must be spanked.

    There are plenty of kids who can grow up without needing a single spanking.

    Also, there are plenty of situations where corporal punishment might be used unnecessarily.

    I think we live in a society that:
    A) Has no idea how to do it properly, and
    B) Is terrified to learn because liberals want to put people in jail for practicing good discipline.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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