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Thread: THE CHURCH DID NOT START AT PENTECOST

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Yes, Peter's statement that Jesus is the Christ is the rock.
    And Christ is the Rock, and Peter (lit. "rock") is the rock also.
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I suggest to you Peter is not the rock.
    I have zero reason to believe that Peter (lit. "rock") is not the rock.
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    If you look at the Greek text, it's petra feminine. A man's name is masculine, Petros, so it could not be Peter.
    I have zero reason to think that the conversation between Peter and Christ recorded in Matthew 16 occurred in Greek. In Aramaic, there is no gender conflict between 'kepa' /'keppa' /'kepha' /"cephas" (Gr.) referring to Peter, and to a rock.

    When a conversation that occurred in Aramaic is translated into a language like Greek where the Greek word for 'rock' is feminine, and the same word is given to a man (Peter) as his regnal name, then it is only reasonable to change the gender of the feminine word to masculine.

    And additionally, all history reports that the whole Church always believed, until the 1500s, that Matthew 16:18 KJV referred to Peter being the rock upon which the Lord would build His Church. I have zero reason to think that the whole Church got it wrong from the Apostolic era onward, for 15 centuries, and it took a cluster of Protestant rebels to set the record straight.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    From Gotquestions.org

    The church began on the Day of Pentecost, fifty days after the Passover when Jesus died and rose again. The word translated “church” comes from two Greek words that together mean “called out from the world for God.” The word is used throughout the Bible to refer to all those who have been born again (John 3:3) through faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus (Romans 10:9–10). The word church, when used to reference all believers everywhere, is synonymous with the term Body of Christ (Ephesians 1:22–23; Colossians 1:18).

    The word church first appears in Matthew 16 when Jesus tells Peter, “On this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” (verse 18). The “rock” here is the statement Peter had made, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (verse 16). That truth about Jesus is the bedrock of the church that has flourished for over two thousand years. Everyone who makes that truth the foundation of his or her own life becomes a member of Jesus’ church (Acts 16:31).

    Jesus’ words, “I will build my church,” were a foretelling of what was about to happen when He sent the Holy Spirit to indwell believers (John 15:26–27; 16:13). Jesus still had to undergo the cross and experience the resurrection. Although the disciples understood in part, the fulfillment of all Jesus had come to do had not yet been accomplished. After His resurrection Jesus would not allow His followers to begin the work He had given them, to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:19–20), until the Holy Spirit had come (Acts 1:4–5).

    The book of Acts details the beginning of the church and its miraculous spread through the power of the Holy Spirit. Ten days after Jesus ascended back into heaven (Acts 1:9), the Holy Spirit was poured out upon 120 of Jesus’ followers who waited and prayed (Acts 1:15; 2:1–4). The same disciples who had quaked in fear of being identified with Jesus (Mark 14:30, 50) were suddenly empowered to boldly proclaim the gospel of the risen Messiah, validating their message with miraculous signs and wonders (Acts 2:4, 38–41; 3:6–7; 8:7). Thousands of Jews from all parts of the world were in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost. They heard the gospel in their own languages (Acts 2:5–8), and many believed (Acts 2:41; 4:4). Those who were saved were baptized, adding daily to the church. When persecution broke out, the believers scattered, taking the gospel message with them, and the church spread like wildfire to all parts of the known earth (Acts 8:4; 11:19–21).

    The start of the church involved Jews in Jerusalem, but the church soon spread to other people groups. The Samaritans were evangelized by Philip in Acts 8. In Acts 10, God gave Peter a vision that helped him understand that the message of salvation was not limited to the Jews but open to anyone who believed (Acts 10:34–35, 45). The salvation of the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26–39) and the Italian centurion Cornelius (Acts 10) convinced the Jewish believers that God’s church was broader than they had imagined. The miraculous calling of Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1–19) set the stage for an even greater spread of the gospel to the Gentiles (Romans 15:16; 1 Timothy 2:7).

    Jesus’ prophetic words to Peter before the crucifixion have proved true. Though persecution and “the gates of Hades” have fought against it, the church only grows stronger. Revelation 7:9 provides a glimpse of the church as God designed it to be: “After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.” The church that Jesus began will continue until the day He comes for us (John 14:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17) and we are united with Him forever as His bride (Ephesians 5:27; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 19:7).
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    From Gotquestions.org

    The church began on the Day of Pentecost, fifty days after the Passover when Jesus died and rose again. The word translated “church” comes from two Greek words that together mean “called out from the world for God.” The word is used throughout the Bible to refer to all those who have been born again (John 3:3) through faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus (Romans 10:9–10). The word church, when used to reference all believers everywhere, is synonymous with the term Body of Christ (Ephesians 1:22–23; Colossians 1:18).

    The word church first appears in Matthew 16 when Jesus tells Peter, “On this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” (verse 18). The “rock” here is the statement Peter had made, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (verse 16). That truth about Jesus is the bedrock of the church that has flourished for over two thousand years. Everyone who makes that truth the foundation of his or her own life becomes a member of Jesus’ church (Acts 16:31).

    Jesus’ words, “I will build my church,” were a foretelling of what was about to happen when He sent the Holy Spirit to indwell believers (John 15:26–27; 16:13). Jesus still had to undergo the cross and experience the resurrection. Although the disciples understood in part, the fulfillment of all Jesus had come to do had not yet been accomplished. After His resurrection Jesus would not allow His followers to begin the work He had given them, to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:19–20), until the Holy Spirit had come (Acts 1:4–5).

    The book of Acts details the beginning of the church and its miraculous spread through the power of the Holy Spirit. Ten days after Jesus ascended back into heaven (Acts 1:9), the Holy Spirit was poured out upon 120 of Jesus’ followers who waited and prayed (Acts 1:15; 2:1–4). The same disciples who had quaked in fear of being identified with Jesus (Mark 14:30, 50) were suddenly empowered to boldly proclaim the gospel of the risen Messiah, validating their message with miraculous signs and wonders (Acts 2:4, 38–41; 3:6–7; 8:7). Thousands of Jews from all parts of the world were in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost. They heard the gospel in their own languages (Acts 2:5–8), and many believed (Acts 2:41; 4:4). Those who were saved were baptized, adding daily to the church. When persecution broke out, the believers scattered, taking the gospel message with them, and the church spread like wildfire to all parts of the known earth (Acts 8:4; 11:19–21).

    The start of the church involved Jews in Jerusalem, but the church soon spread to other people groups. The Samaritans were evangelized by Philip in Acts 8. In Acts 10, God gave Peter a vision that helped him understand that the message of salvation was not limited to the Jews but open to anyone who believed (Acts 10:34–35, 45). The salvation of the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26–39) and the Italian centurion Cornelius (Acts 10) convinced the Jewish believers that God’s church was broader than they had imagined. The miraculous calling of Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1–19) set the stage for an even greater spread of the gospel to the Gentiles (Romans 15:16; 1 Timothy 2:7).

    Jesus’ prophetic words to Peter before the crucifixion have proved true. Though persecution and “the gates of Hades” have fought against it, the church only grows stronger. Revelation 7:9 provides a glimpse of the church as God designed it to be: “After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.” The church that Jesus began will continue until the day He comes for us (John 14:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17) and we are united with Him forever as His bride (Ephesians 5:27; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 19:7).
    Hello
    There are 3 churches.

    The first is the church in the wilderness, the assembly of Israel under Moses (Acts 7:38).

    The second is the church of God which was comprised of those in Christ who believed on his name, that he is Messiah, the Son of God (John 20:31). Paul persecuted this church (Galatians 1:13).

    The third is the body of Christ only revealed in Paul's epistles which he received by revelation of Christ (Galatians 1:12).

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Paul referred to the church he persecuted as the Way.
    Acts 9:2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

    When Paul was making his defense before the Jews he said he persecuted this Way. The Way he was on trial for. He was now on the other side being persecuted by the Jews.
    Acts 22:4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women,

    Before Felix Paul says he worships God according to the Way.
    Acts 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

    Paul was persecuting the body of Christ.
    Acts 9:5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
    Jer 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
    Jer 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

    Luk 13:7 And he said to the vinedresser, 'Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?'
    Luk 13:8 And he answered him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put on manure.
    Luk 13:9 Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.'"

    Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

    did all the Jews turn to Jesus?
    or were the Jews cut off Luk 13:9 ?
    Rom 11:15,25
    did Jesus turn to the gentiles ?

    Gal_2:7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised

    different branches different church same root.

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    TOL Subscriber turbosixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I have zero reason to think that the conversation between Peter and Christ recorded in Matthew 16 occurred in Greek.
    The conversation might not have been in Greek but the conversation and the writing of that conversation were years apart. A conservative estimate would be 17 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    When a conversation that occurred in Aramaic is translated into a language like Greek where the Greek word for 'rock' is feminine, and the same word is given to a man (Peter) as his regnal name, then it is only reasonable to change the gender of the feminine word to masculine.
    Who do you believe wrote the NT, HS or man?

    Let's suppose Peter is the rock. Is this the kind of rock you want Christ's church to be built on?

    74 Then he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, “I do not know the man.” And immediately the rooster crowed. 75 And Peter remembered the saying of Jesus, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” And he went out and wept bitterly.
    NOT A ROCK

    11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
    NOT A ROCK

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I have zero reason to think that the whole Church got it wrong from the Apostolic era onward, for 15 centuries,
    Would you say the church is perfect or has deviated from the truth?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    Gal_2:7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised
    There is only one gospel. THE gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with THE gospel to the circumcised

    If you look at the Greek text, gospel only appears once because it's the same gospel but two audiences each with a different background.

    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    did all the Jews turn to Jesus?
    or were the Jews cut off Luk 13:9 ?
    Rom 11:15,25
    Where all the Jews cut off?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    The conversation might not have been in Greek but the conversation and the writing of that conversation were years apart. A conservative estimate would be 17 years.
    So my point stands and your feminine 'petra' vs. masculine 'Petros' theory is out the window. 'Too bad, because we didn't get a chance to get into why, if Christ meant Himself, also a man, then again, why the feminine 'petra?' It's too bad we didn't get to dig into that problem of yours also.
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Who do you believe wrote the NT, HS or man?
    In one sense the Spirit, and then in the physical sense man. The Apostles were promised that the Spirit would lead them all into all truth, reminding them of everything the Lord taught them during His earthly ministry. You didn't think that the Apostles would be able to remember everything they did through only human means, did you? Of course not. Everything that they managed to recall about what Christ did and said during those Brief three years is a miracle itself, and so it must have been God Who is behind the N.T. That's just obvious if you think about it for even a moment.

    And which men physically wrote the N.T.? Some of them weren't even Apostles, which prompts the question, if only the Apostles were given the Spirit without measure such that their authoritative teachings were the Word of God, then how are books like Luke, Acts, and James Scripture? And the answer is that these books were authorized by the Apostles as Scripture. Determining the contents of the N.T. was one of their jobs; they wrote much of the N.T., and they approved of the rest, authenticating each of the books not written or dictated by Apostles, as Scripture.
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Let's suppose Peter is the rock. Is this the kind of rock you want Christ's church to be built on?

    74 Then he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, “I do not know the man.” And immediately the rooster crowed. 75 And Peter remembered the saying of Jesus, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” And he went out and wept bitterly.
    NOT A ROCK

    11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
    NOT A ROCK
    It's a question of what 'rock' means. The Catholic view is that the rock is the pastorate that Peter held, what today we call the papacy, which is the office of the supreme bishop of the one Church that Christ built upon Peter. No pope is perfect or infallible, they each including Peter have their flaws, but the office they hold is what the Lord built His Church upon, not any single man. The only man He could build His Church upon is Himself, and He has, and He has also chosen How to build His Church, and it is upon the 'rock' of the papacy, the supreme pastorate of Christ's Church, the first holder of which was St. Peter. This is what 'rock' means, not what you're supposing.
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Would you say the church is perfect or has deviated from the truth?
    Define what you mean by "church," so that I can answer the right question for you.

    When I say "Church," unless I specify the Catholic Church, I mean the one Body of Christ, which are all those Catholics who are in full communion with each other, and all those non-Catholic people and Catholics not currently in full communion, but who believe in Christ. And the Church is a Society of people.

    The Church as a Society of people are perfect in the sense that Christ has sanctified us and cleansed us such that we are without spot or wrinkle or blemish (Eph5:26-27KJV), and we are objectively imperfect in our flesh, as we are a cluster of sinners.

    If you mean by "church," the authentic pastorate (Bishop, cf. 1Ti3:1KJV), then my answer is that their teachings in all matters of faith and morals is perfect.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    A church started at Pentecost
    Nowhere does the Bible describe a church starting at Pentecost.... nowhere.
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    When/where did the church first start?
    Which one?
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    When was this church established?
    Matt. 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Do you not believe this?
    Building does NOT mean starting. I know that Churchianity has pounded this into peoples heads, but it's just not true.
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    TOL Subscriber turbosixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    In one sense the Spirit, and then in the physical sense man. The Apostles were promised that the Spirit would lead them all into all truth, reminding them of everything the Lord taught them during His earthly ministry. You didn't think that the Apostles would be able to remember everything they did through only human means, did you? Of course not. Everything that they managed to recall about what Christ did and said during those Brief three years is a miracle itself, and so it must have been God Who is behind the N.T. That's just obvious if you think about it for even a moment.

    And which men physically wrote the N.T.? Some of them weren't even Apostles, which prompts the question, if only the Apostles were given the Spirit without measure such that their authoritative teachings were the Word of God, then how are books like Luke, Acts, and James Scripture? And the answer is that these books were authorized by the Apostles as Scripture. Determining the contents of the N.T. was one of their jobs; they wrote much of the N.T., and they approved of the rest, authenticating each of the books not written or dictated by Apostles, as Scripture.
    I agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    what today we call the papacy, which is the office of the supreme bishop of the one Church that Christ built upon Peter.
    I'm familiar with the office of elder and deacon. We are given the requirement for each in scripture. Where would I find the requirements for pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    the first holder of which was St. Peter.
    What evidence are you basing Peter being the first pope on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    When I say "Church," unless I specify the Catholic Church, I mean the one Body of Christ, which are all those Catholics who are in full communion with each other, and all those non-Catholic people and Catholics not currently in full communion, but who believe in Christ. And the Church is a Society of people.

    The Church as a Society of people are perfect in the sense that Christ has sanctified us and cleansed us such that we are without spot or wrinkle or blemish (Eph5:26-27KJV), and we are objectively imperfect in our flesh, as we are a cluster of sinners.
    I agree with this definition except for the Catholic part. Do you believe Jesus is divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    If you mean by "church," the authentic pastorate (Bishop, cf. 1Ti3:1KJV), then my answer is that their teachings in all matters of faith and morals is perfect.
    Are you saying the teachings of the papacy have and are perfect even today?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I agree
    OK.
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I'm familiar with the office of elder and deacon.
    OK. I'm supposing your local church has men or women holding those offices. Does your local church, if you do go to church, also have a man or a woman holding "the office of a bishop" (1Ti3:1KJV) at the moment?
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    We are given the requirement for each in scripture. Where would I find the requirements for pope?
    That's easy. His job is to "feed." John 21:15 KJV John 21:16 KJV John 21:17 KJV
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    What evidence are you basing Peter being the first pope on?
    History.
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I agree with this definition except for the Catholic part. Do you believe Jesus is divided?
    I doubt it, but in what way do you mean 'divided,' just so we're clear on what you're asking about?
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Are you saying the teachings of the papacy have and are perfect even today?
    In all matters of faith and morals.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    There is only one gospel. THE gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with THE gospel to the circumcised

    If you look at the Greek text, gospel only appears once because it's the same gospel but two audiences each with a different background.
    each with a different dispensation
    different branches different church same root.
    Where all the Jews cut off?
    did all the Jews turn to Jesus?

    did this happen ?
    Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.
    or did this happen ?
    Jer 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
    Jer 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.


    were the Jews cut off
    Luk 13:9
    Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.'"

    Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I'm supposing your local church has men or women holding those offices. Does your local church, if you do go to church, also have a man or a woman holding "the office of a bishop" (1Ti3:1KJV) at the moment?
    Yes, we have elders. By the requirements only a man qualifies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    That's easy. His job is to "feed." John 21:15 KJV John 21:16 KJV John 21:17 KJV
    That is a job not a qualification. If that is your "qualification" then anyone can be pope, even a woman. Where do find the requirements for someone to qualify to be pope?
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    History.
    I would not base God's truth on history. It's subjective to the viewer. Would you be for inquisitions? That is in your history.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I doubt it, but in what way do you mean 'divided,' just so we're clear on what you're asking about?
    By calling yourself Catholic, you are separating yourself from other Christians.
    10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

    Shouldn't we all just be "Christian". No hyphenations.
    28 And Agrippa said to Paul, “In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?”

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    In all matters of faith and morals.
    How do you know? Where do you get that proof?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    each with a different dispensation
    different branches different church same root.
    It appears to me that by you're logic the Corinthians were doing the right thing in dividing themselves because they are not members of the same church. Some were converted by Peter, some by Apollos and some by Paul.

    I don't see where Paul even hint that they are in different churches.
    1 Cor. 1:2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
    1:4 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,
    1:9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.


    He tells them they should not be dividing themselves.
    1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.


    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    did all the Jews turn to Jesus?
    I would love to answer but first I need to know what you consider a Jew.

    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    did this happen ?
    Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.
    Jesus said it would and I believe Him. I trust Him.
    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    or did this happen ?
    Jer 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
    Jer 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
    I believe this is true as well. I can expand on it once we come to an agreement on who is a Jew.


    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    were the Jews cut off
    Luk 13:9
    Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.'"

    Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
    Who do you believe tore the veil and destroyed the temple?
    Wretched man that I am.

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