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    Internet communication

    Just out of curiosity, how many people who post here think any form of internet communication is an adequate form of communication in comparison to face-to-face communication?

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    not me

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    not me
    This question will bring forth a very subjective answer, but that is intentional on my part: In your experience, just what kind of percentage of the total information we are trying to communicate is lost using internet communication?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how many people who post here think any form of internet communication is an adequate form of communication in comparison to face-to-face communication?
    It may not be optimal, but it's more than adequate.

    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    It may not be optimal, but it's more than adequate.
    Please explain why you think it is adequate when the majority of communication face-to-face is non-verbal. Tone and body language tell us more than words actually do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    Please explain why you think it is adequate when the majority of communication face-to-face is non-verbal. Tone and body language tell us more than words actually do.

    If it wasn't adequate, we wouldn't have the conversations we have here. The conversations are happening, and in many cases, with less ambiguity because we have the words right in front of us, without the possibility of misinterpreting body language (what we think we see, or want to see).

    My (admittedly and necessarily) subjective take:

    It also seems less important to be able to read nonverbal cues when engaging with an adversary or a passing/detached online acquaintance. Where I miss non-verbal communication is when communicating with people I care about, whose well-being both online and IRL is important to me. Even then, nonverbal's not necessary, because IMO a mind-to-mind conversation can go places that perhaps a face-to-face conversation might never. Interactions IRL tend to be on the surface and easygoing, so meeting someone for lunch or coffee isn't necessarily going to go existentially deeper than the weather. Not saying at all that it couldn't or wouldn't, I've had both - but in day-to-day experience with my own friends, we're not talking about the death of civilization when we meet for coffee in the middle of a weekday afternoon.

    Also, I can talk about things online that I can't talk about in real life with most people in my circle of conservative family and friends, because my views as they are now just wouldn't fly, so there's a certain amount of self-preservation going on. At this point in my life I appreciate the ability to communicate freely online even as it comes without the very real advantage of nonverbal cues.

    Having said that: Nonverbal conversation weights pretty heavily in human interaction, 2:1 or even more, so I don't dismiss at all the importance of being able to read someone's face, look them in the eye, read their body language, even gauge their silences. Extended to the fullest possibility, your life could depend on it.

    But in real life, I've also been hurt by those very same things, only to have the person deny that's what they did, even though that's exactly what they did. Their words say one thing, their body language another. So are they lying to me, to themselves? Or are they that non-perceptive and unaware? Could be one or the other, or both.
    Last edited by annabenedetti; June 7th, 2019 at 10:18 AM. Reason: typo

    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    This question will bring forth a very subjective answer, but that is intentional on my part: In your experience, just what kind of percentage of the total information we are trying to communicate is lost using internet communication?
    couldn't say, but this convo illustrates one common problem - i forgot about this thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    couldn't say, but this convo illustrates one common problem - i forgot about this thread
    LOL. That happens to me on a regular basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    If it wasn't adequate, we wouldn't have the conversations we have here. The conversations are happening, and in many cases, with less ambiguity because we have the words right in front of us, without the possibility of misinterpreting body language (what we think we see, or want to see).

    My (admittedly and necessarily) subjective take:

    It also seems less important to be able to read nonverbal cues when engaging with an adversary or a passing/detached online acquaintance. Where I miss non-verbal communication is when communicating with people I care about, whose well-being both online and IRL is important to me. Even then, nonverbal's not necessary, because IMO a mind-to-mind conversation can go places that perhaps a face-to-face conversation might never. Interactions IRL tend to be on the surface and easygoing, so meeting someone for lunch or coffee isn't necessarily going to go existentially deeper than the weather. Not saying at all that it couldn't or wouldn't, I've had both - but in day-to-day experience with my own friends, we're not talking about the death of civilization when we meet for coffee in the middle of a weekday afternoon.

    Also, I can talk about things online that I can't talk about in real life with most people in my circle of conservative family and friends, because my views as they are now just wouldn't fly, so there's a certain amount of self-preservation going on. At this point in my life I appreciate the ability to communicate freely online even as it comes without the very real advantage of nonverbal cues.

    Having said that: Nonverbal conversation weights pretty heavily in human interaction, 2:1 or even more, so I don't dismiss at all the importance of being able to read someone's face, look them in the eye, read their body language, even gauge their silences. Extended to the fullest possibility, your life could depend on it.

    But in real life, I've also been hurt by those very same things, only to have the person deny that's what they did, even though that's exactly what they did. Their words say one thing, their body language another. So are they lying to me, to themselves? Or are they that non-perceptive and unaware? Could be one or the other, or both.
    I don't understand why you would think the majority of communication missed is not necessary just because you don't know someone. To me it makes that lost information even more critical because it is much more possible to misunderstand the wording of someone you don't know. Just being unfamiliar with another person's temperament, background, tendencies in how they communicate, etc... makes it much more likely to misunderstand what they are saying. Add in the loss of non-verbal communication such as tone of voice and body language the chances of misunderstanding what someone actually means skyrockets. To me it's like you're saying, if I don't know someone very well I could care less if we really understand each other or not. I can only shake my head in amazement at that attitude. I mean, if you don't care about how well you're communicating with another person why even bother to post? What's the point? It seems to me posting is then just about an agenda.

    What you point out as a negative in reading non-verbal clues as to what someone means I don't see as negative. I see it as positive for without the non-verbal clues you have no idea what you're missing out on. It's important to know if someone is trustworthy, or they show themselves likely to be dishonest in what they say by their non-verbal communication. If someone shows no symptoms attributable to lying you know the chances are good they are being truthful with you, or at least deeply believe what they just said. And, when someone shows non-verbal symptoms of being dishonest you know not to place much reliance on what they say. That's important in every day life. As to someone lying about what they just said, I've seen that time and time again. I have adult in-laws like that, and I've seen 3 year olds do it too. I guess I don't understand why reading those kinds of people's non-verbal communcation becomes hurtful. To me reading the non-verbal communication means I'm less likely to get hurt by that type of person.

    In this format all those means of understanding another person are gone. And if they express themselves differently than you do all you can judge their expressions by are your own experience and since everyone has different backgrounds, educations, ways of expressing themselves that leads to major miscommunication problems. As human beings we often see the same words as having different meanings. That's one reason I post so many dictionary definitions. It helps eliminate miscommunication when the meaning being being used is pointed out. It's like the thread on bitterness. Most people see it as meaning anger and/or rebellion, when it also means deep grief and distress. Those are almost diametrically opposed definitions and make any discussion of the term apt to misunderstanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    I don't understand why you would think the majority of communication missed is not necessary just because you don't know someone. To me it makes that lost information even more critical because it is much more possible to misunderstand the wording of someone you don't know. Just being unfamiliar with another person's temperament, background, tendencies in how they communicate, etc... makes it much more likely to misunderstand what they are saying. Add in the loss of non-verbal communication such as tone of voice and body language the chances of misunderstanding what someone actually means skyrockets. To me it's like you're saying, if I don't know someone very well I could care less if we really understand each other or not. I can only shake my head in amazement at that attitude. I mean, if you don't care about how well you're communicating with another person why even bother to post? What's the point? It seems to me posting is then just about an agenda.
    Maybe because I don't look at it the same as you. No surprise there, right? Remember, "out of curiosity," you're intentionally inviting subjectivity here, which isn't necessarily going to mesh with yours or anyone else's. Ideally that would be without expecting or directing it to mesh with your own subjective reality. Like, if you wanted to know why or how people think about verbal online communication, it's hopefully not so you can tell us we're doing it wrong?

    Maybe the point I want to make is this: Not having nonverbal communication doesn't make verbal communication worthless. You still have 100% of each person's verbal communication to work with and in many if not most cases it's at least "adequate." Often it's more than adequate for me, and frequently it's quite satisfactory. That's my experience, which won't be the same as everyone else's, nor do I expect it should be.

    As for why I bother to post? Many years of internet conversations have formed me as much as I've formed them and one outcome is that I've learned how to conserve energy. That makes it easier to walk away from a conversation that's just not working, and I don't happen to see anything wrong with that, nor do I think it has to be seen as a failure of communication or a negative reflection on why I'm here. It represents how I use my energies, and if I perceive that the cost of staying in a conversation that isn't working outweighs the benefits of soldiering on, then whether or not I cut bait often will depend on a number of factors, including who I'm talking to.

    In this format all those means of understanding another person are gone. And if they express themselves differently than you do all you can judge their expressions by are your own experience and since everyone has different backgrounds, educations, ways of expressing themselves that leads to major miscommunication problems. As human beings we often see the same words as having different meanings.
    We all have bias filters. It's very human, so even if you were talking to someone face-to-face and were able to read every nuance of tone and body language, you're still going to perceive all of it through your filters. Nonverbal is important and invaluable but it's not a guarantee of understanding.

    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how many people who post here think any form of internet communication is an adequate form of communication in comparison to face-to-face communication?
    I will explain to you how I would answer this question the next time I see you.

    What is your address please?
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    Maybe because I don't look at it the same as you. No surprise there, right? Remember, "out of curiosity," you're intentionally inviting subjectivity here, which isn't necessarily going to mesh with yours or anyone else's. Ideally that would be without expecting or directing it to mesh with your own subjective reality. Like, if you wanted to know why or how people think about verbal online communication, it's hopefully not so you can tell us we're doing it wrong?

    Maybe the point I want to make is this: Not having nonverbal communication doesn't make verbal communication worthless. You still have 100% of each person's verbal communication to work with and in many if not most cases it's at least "adequate." Often it's more than adequate for me, and frequently it's quite satisfactory. That's my experience, which won't be the same as everyone else's, nor do I expect it should be.

    As for why I bother to post? Many years of internet conversations have formed me as much as I've formed them and one outcome is that I've learned how to conserve energy. That makes it easier to walk away from a conversation that's just not working, and I don't happen to see anything wrong with that, nor do I think it has to be seen as a failure of communication or a negative reflection on why I'm here. It represents how I use my energies, and if I perceive that the cost of staying in a conversation that isn't working outweighs the benefits of soldiering on, then whether or not I cut bait often will depend on a number of factors, including who I'm talking to.



    We all have bias filters. It's very human, so even if you were talking to someone face-to-face and were able to read every nuance of tone and body language, you're still going to perceive all of it through your filters. Nonverbal is important and invaluable but it's not a guarantee of understanding.
    Well, I'll say this for you, you've verified the reason I had for beginning this thread. You've done it both explicitly and implicitly. The implicit verification is the lack of caring as to whether or not you care to finish a conversation or even fully understand the other person. The explicit verification is your statement that using the internet has changed you.

    Internet communication is changing us in ways we hardly comprehend. It's lessening our desire to have as full of a range of communication as is possible for human beings, and at the same time causing us to not care about both that lack of complete communication with our fellow man and our fellow human beings themselves. In other words, making us even more self centered. It is also rewiring our brains. Literally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    I will explain to you how I would answer this question the next time I see you.

    What is your address please?
    Oh, wow. Did you actually create that mindless response yourself, or was it a collaborative effort?

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    Depends, I suppose, on what it is you're trying to communicate. And how effective you are at communicating through writing.

    Skype seems to work pretty well for my interactions with my new grandson, although I would much prefer to be in the same room with him. He has his dad's red hair and blue eyes, and his jovial demeanor. Love to hear him laugh when I talk to him.
    This message is hidden because ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    Well, I'll say this for you, you've verified the reason I had for beginning this thread.
    So you confirmed your bias.

    You've done it both explicitly and implicitly. The implicit verification is the lack of caring as to whether or not you care to finish a conversation or even fully understand the other person.
    You're seeing what you want to see, since I never said I didn't care, did I? In fact, I'd say you totally misread my intent - could it perhaps be because you don't care much for me or for what I have to say? Do you think that's possible? Because I specifically said that online communication for me was "frequently quite satisfactory." I also told you whether I walked from a conversation depended "on a number of factors, including who I'm talking to." That means that the more I care for a person, the more likely I am to persevere. If I perceive the other person is convinced I'm an 'evil leftist scumbag' and so discounts anything I'd say as worthless, do I owe them the same courtesy as to a good friend or even a friendly adversary? No. That's real life too.

    The explicit verification is your statement that using the internet has changed you.
    And you see that as personal verification? I've been seeing and saying this:

    Internet communication is changing us in ways we hardly comprehend.
    for quite a while now.

    And when I most recently did, it got called "fear-mongering."

    And that's okay, I can live with that, because I've seen others screaming about socialism with what in turn I see as fear-mongering. (I grew up with that kind of fear-mongering, but that's for a different discussion.) One person's fear-mongering is another person's honest attempt to be the canary in the coal mine, so I try to remember to see both sides but these post-Trump days it's not too appetizing a task.

    It is also rewiring our brains. Literally.
    Now if you'd wanted a discussion about that, I'd have been more than willing to join in, since it's a subject of great interest to me.

    But not if you're going to continually bat away anything I have to say as useless. See how that works?

    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

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