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Thread: Evolution and its effects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    The highest on record is over double what it is now. Did you not look at the data I showed you? And the uptick after Trump's election was tiny, less than a 5% increase. C'mon. Look at the graph. It's right in front of you.



    It's FBI data. Do you have something more accurate? Show us, with your evidence that it is more accurate.



    All violence is among people. That's how it works. And yes, in the past there were lots of cases of random killings. Would you like some examples?



    So far, you haven't shown us your source that refutes FBI data. I can't look at it, if you don't show it to us.
    I understand your data was from the FBI.

    The CDC is at-a-glance so easy to look at.

    Random violence vs domestic (did you not pick up on that?).

    Your Gallup poll coincides well with the CDC statistics.

    Your second chart isn't linked, but doesn't coincide with CDC. Perhaps just crimes the FBI itself has dealt with is going down (I'd need the link)

    Your third chart is dated so is incomplete. The CDC is the current one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Then engage sensibly over the evidence. You know: Science.
    this thread is about the "effects" of evolution. Not the science. I would be glad to to have a sensible discussion of Evolution with honest sensible people who know some science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    ... [the science] of evolution.
    Which only again exposes your religious devotion to an idea; your assumption of the truth of evolution trumps all.

    I would be glad to have a sensible discussion of [e]volution with honest sensible people who know some science.
    Then engage over the evidence; you know: Science.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I understand your data was from the FBI.
    It works pretty well, because the previous decades you're talking about were also FBI stats, based on the same criteria. Apples to apples.

    The CDC is at-a-glance so easy to look at.
    Oranges. Which means you can't compare them with decades past.

    Random violence vs domestic (did you not pick up on that?).
    There was, as I said, random violence in the past as well. Would you like some examples? It's not a new thing.

    Like so many other positivistic inquiries in social science, such “measurement” jars our sense of proportion by setting down with mathematical exactitude data that have in actuality little of the precision apparently conveyed by the figures in which they are reported. It is a bit hard to understand what we are being told when we learn that the “magnitude of civil strife” in Venezuela for the troubled five-year period 1961–5 was 20.3 while that of France was 12.1, and that of the United States for the five years 1963–8 was 13.8. The fact that the estimated casualties for the United States per hundred thousand were five, whereas those for France were four, may not tell us quite what we want to know about the comparative importance of violence in the polities of the two countries. There were more casualties in the local encounter over the “People’s Park” in Berkeley in May 1969 than in the convulsive upheaval throughout France a year earlier.

    Nonetheless, the figures compiled by the National Commission’s experts constitute the only check we have thus far against arbitrary impressions, and they confirm our sense that the United States is far from being the most peaceful among the Western or other industrial nations with which comparison seems most appropriate. These experts find in the United States of recent years a magnitude of civil strife that compares very unfavorably with most other nations of a high level of economic development, and somewhat unfavorably even with some nations of a medium level of economic development. This country has been, for example, less strife-ridden than Indonesia, Algeria, Rhodesia or Venezuela, about as strife-ridden as France, India, and Ecuador, and far more so than the United Kingdom, West Germany, the USSR, Puerto Rico, Taiwan, and the Scandinavian countries, to choose more or less at random from a large number of countries with less domestic violence than our own.

    There is another respect in which such data should be looked at carefully: the level of civil strife has no consistent relation to political freedom. The United States in the 1960s showed a relatively high level of freedom and permissiveness in its policies toward domestic protest at a time when it had profoundly divisive domestic problems and a simultaneous unsuccessful and unpopular foreign war. This reads like a prescription for violent disturbances. By contrast, nations governed by dictators or firmly installed authoritarian systems—Portugal and Spain, the USSR, Poland, Yugoslavia, and Rumania, as well as Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Republic—all stand well below the United States in the dimensions of their civil strife. Yet the internal peace enjoyed by some polities rather resembles that of the graveyard, and here invidious comparisons with American violence would have little meaning. One might well prefer to endure occasional and limited violence if the only alternative is a state of almost unlimited repression. . . .
    https://thebaffler.com/ancestors/reflections-violence-united-states

    Your Gallup poll coincides well with the CDC statistics.
    Over the decades, it does. The marked decline in violence since the 1980s is correlated with an increasing acceptance of evolution by the American people. But correlation is not necessarily causation. Could be that education has affected both. Or something else; the mere correlation of lower violence with increasing acceptance of evolution by the American people during the same time does not, in itself, prove anything.


    Your second chart isn't linked, but doesn't coincide with CDC.
    Notice it says "FBI 2019." Go to:
    https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R45236.pdf

    Page 2. Same data. The uptick in the violent crime rate has occurred mostly in cities, and not in all of them. You can ask what happened in America since 2015, but I don't know that anyone has shown a cause as of yet. The point remains; the dramatic decrease in violent crime over the last few decades is correlated with an increasing acceptance of evolution. Which pretty much demolishes the OP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    this thread is about the "effects" of evolution. Not the science. I would be glad to to have a sensible discussion of Evolution with honest sensible people who know some science.
    There is science involved in the question of violence. As the data show, the great decrease in violent crime over the past few decades is most likely due to the aging of the boomers; as the number of young adults decreases, so does violence. For reasons everyone should understand.

    The fact that this decrease is correlated with increasing public acceptance of evolution is interesting, but does not prove that acceptance of evolution causes a decrease in violent crime. It does demolish the argument that acceptance of evolution causes violence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    There is science involved in the question of violence.
    Yeah? Why is all you have narrative?

    As the data show, the great decrease in violent crime over the past few decades is most likely due to the aging of the boomers
    Not really.

    It's more likely due to the change in demographics:



    So nothing to do with "boomers," who you seem to want to disparage.

    As the number of young adults decreases, so does violence.
    Nope. As the proportion of young adults decreases, so does the rate of violence.

    For reasons everyone should understand.
    Trump?

    The fact that this decrease is correlated with increasing public acceptance of evolution is interesting, but does not prove that acceptance of evolution causes a decrease in violent crime.
    Yeah?

    Nothing will. It's nice to see that you have a talking point to cut and paste though.

    It does demolish the argument that acceptance of evolution causes violence.
    Not in the slightest.

    1. Nobody has made such a claim. Evolution doesn't cause violence, people do. Evolution is a philosophy that erodes morals and leads to horrors.
    2. As shown, you've taken a proportional decrease in violence that correlates with a demographic shift and pretended it is something else.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
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    The greatest effect of evolution is to destroy faith in God. Jesus is God and Jesus said the following. It was directed to the scribes and Pharisees but is just as applicable to us today as it was to them in their day.

    39 ∂Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
    40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
    41 I receive not honour from men.
    42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
    43 I am come in my Fatherís name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
    44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
    45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you,even Moses, in whom ye trust.
    46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
    47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
    Jesus is saying that if you will not believe the writings of Moses, and that Moses' writings are a testimony as to who He is for Moses wrote about Him, then it is impossible to believe in Jesus as God. Moses wrote the creation story and if we chose to reject it we are rejecting who God is, who He has revealed Himself to be. Saying evolution is true rather than the creation story of the Bible is the rejction of the creative power of God, and that we are His children for He created us in His image, in His likeness.

    An evolutionist may say he worships God, and he is worshiping a god, but he is not worshiping the revealed God of scripture so he is worshiping an idol. It's pure and simply that way for Jesus made that plain by His own words. Were the Pharisees worshiping the God of the Bible, or another god? It's plain they were worshiping another god for they murdered the God of the Bible and their own Creator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    An evolutionist may say he worships God, and he is worshiping a god, but he is not worshiping the revealed God of scripture so he is worshiping an idol.
    If your new doctrine requires that you deny the faith of your fellow Christians, isn't that a pretty good clue that the author of that doctrine isn't God?

    Those who try to push other Christians away from God only succeed in separating themselves from God. Don't let your new beliefs become the idol you worship.

    Set your pride aside and accept that Christians differ on the subject of evolution, and let God be God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Your new doctrine.
    "In six days."

    "The whole Earth."

    "Male and female."

    Turns out the only one who has invented scripture to suit your religion is ... dum dum dum: You.

    Those who try to push other Christians away from God only succeed in separating themselves from God. Don't let your beliefs become the idol you worship too late they already have.

    Set your pride aside and accept that Christians differ on the subject of evolution and let God be God.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
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    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Almost everyone who puts people on "ignore", actually peeks.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
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    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    If your new doctrine requires that you deny the faith of your fellow Christians, isn't that a pretty good clue that the author of that doctrine isn't God?

    Those who try to push other Christians away from God only succeed in separating themselves from God. Don't let your new beliefs become the idol you worship.

    Set your pride aside and accept that Christians differ on the subject of evolution, and let God be God.
    Your lack of reading comprehension skills are showing once again. It was Jesus who said if someone didn't believe Moses that they couldn't believe in Him. I didn't create that I idea, God, as in Jesus, said it thousands of years before I simply paraphrased the statement after quoting Jesus' words. If you have a problem with Jesus' statement you'll have to take it up with Him and tell Him He is wrong. Telling me I'm wrong for showing what He said changes nothing. God's word, Jesus' statement, is reality whether you believe it or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    Your lack of reading comprehension skills are showing once again. It was Jesus who said if someone didn't believe Moses that they couldn't believe in Him.
    Moses didn't invent YE creationism. A Seventh-Day Adventist "prophetess" did.

    I didn't create that I idea
    Henry Morris, the director of the Institute for Creation Research did that.

    God, as in Jesus, said it thousands of years before I simply paraphrased the statement after quoting Jesus' words.
    Just a slight correction in what He said. And of course, Moses never said that the six "yom" in Genesis were literal. In fact, the text of Genesis itself says that it's not literal.

    You're out on that limb with Henry Morris, not God. There are many, many different interpretations of things like this among Christians. The fact remains:

    Those who try to push other Christians away from God only succeed in separating themselves from God. Don't let your new beliefs become the idol you worship.

    Set your pride aside and accept that Christians differ on the subject of evolution, and let God be God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Moses didn't invent YE creationism. A Seventh-Day Adventist "prophetess" did.
    I didn't know an SDA wrote Exodus 20:11 and Genesis 1...



    Henry Morris, the director of the Institute for Creation Research did that.

    Just a slight correction in what He said. And of course, Moses never said that the six "yom" in Genesis were literal. In fact, the text of Genesis itself says that it's not literal.
    Chapter and verse, please.

    You're out on that limb with Henry Morris, not God. There are many, many different interpretations of things like this among Christians.
    Do you include your own interpretation as one of them, Barb?

    Or do you think yours is better than everyone else's?

    The fact remains:
    The fact remains that if Genesis 1 does not describe six literal days, then there is no reasoning for the cross.

    The fact remains that thorns and death did not come before Adam sinned.

    The fact remains that Jesus said that He made man at the beginning of creation, not at the end.

    Those who try to push other Christians away from God only succeed in separating themselves from God. Don't let your new beliefs become the idol you worship.


    Set your pride aside and accept that Christians differ on the subject of evolution,
    Something which is not in dispute...?



    and let God be God.
    More unnecessary blather.

    The fact remains that God described Himself creating in six literal days, and resting on the seventh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Moses didn't invent YE creationism. A Seventh-Day Adventist "prophetess" did.



    Henry Morris, the director of the Institute for Creation Research did that.



    Just a slight correction in what He said. And of course, Moses never said that the six "yom" in Genesis were literal. In fact, the text of Genesis itself says that it's not literal.

    You're out on that limb with Henry Morris, not God. There are many, many different interpretations of things like this among Christians. The fact remains:

    Those who try to push other Christians away from God only succeed in separating themselves from God. Don't let your new beliefs become the idol you worship.

    Set your pride aside and accept that Christians differ on the subject of evolution, and let God be God.
    LOL. I notice you omitted all of your "scriptural" evidence for creation not taking place in 6 literal evenings and mornings and God resting on the 7th. I would consider myself in good company with anyone who accepts the biblical creation story, including SDAs.

    I have to laugh at your assertion that the Biblical account of creation was first proposed by Ellen White. That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Josephus, who lived just a day or two before Ellen White was born, confirms the literal six day account of creation in his writings. You know, back in 70 A.D. That's only 1700+ years before Ellen White's day.

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    Here is a little quote from Josephus' writings. Notice the time frame Josephus gives us from creation to the death of Isaac. Josephus was a young earth creationist, not an evolutionist proclaiming the earth to be billions of years of age....

    BOOK I. Containing The Interval Of Three Thousand Eight Hundred And Thirty-Three Years. ó From The Creation To The Death Of Isaac.






    CHAPTER 1. The Constitution Of The World And The Disposition Of The Elements.

    1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. But when the earth did not come into sight, but was covered with thick darkness, and a wind moved upon its surface, God commanded that there should be light: and when that was made, he considered the whole mass, and separated the light and the darkness; and the name he gave to one was Night, and the other he called Day: and he named the beginning of light, and the time of rest, The Evening and The Morning, and this was indeed the first day. But Moses said it was one day; the cause of which I am able to give even now; but because I have promised to give such reasons for all things in a treatise by itself, I shall put off its exposition till that time. After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts, and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews. On the third day he appointed the dry land to appear, with the sea itself round about it; and on the very same day he made the plants and the seeds to spring out of the earth. On the fourth day he adorned the heaven with the sun, the moon, and the other stars, and appointed them their motions and courses, that the vicissitudes of the seasons might be clearly signified. And on the fifth day he produced the living creatures, both those that swim, and those that fly; the former in the sea, the latter in the air: he also sorted them as to society and mixture, for procreation, and that their kinds might increase and multiply. On the sixth day he created the four-footed beasts, and made them male and female: on the same day he also formed man. Accordingly Moses says, That in just six days the world, and all that is therein, was made. And that the seventh day was a rest, and a release from the labor of such operations; whence it is that we Celebrate a rest from our labors on that day, and call it the Sabbath, which word denotes rest in the Hebrew tongue.

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