User Tag List

Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: The Sheep were never goats, but always Sheep !

  1. #1
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    19,404
    Thanks
    765
    Thanked 2,955 Times in 2,854 Posts

    Blog Entries
    19
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    47793

    The Sheep were never goats, but always Sheep !

    The misconception these days from many people is that Christs Sheep, those He laid down His Life for Jn 10 were prior to faith or believing they were goats. Couldn't be further from the truth ! Nor was the Wheat ever a tare. Remember Jesus words Matt 13:12-30. Neither were the Children of God ever the children of the devil.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to beloved57 For Your Post:

    ok doser (June 5th, 2019)

  3. #2
    Maranatha Nanja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Motown
    Posts
    4,585
    Thanks
    2,656
    Thanked 914 Times in 881 Posts

    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    26544
    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    The misconception these days from many people is that Christs Sheep, those He laid down His Life for Jn 10 were prior to faith or believing they were goats. Couldn't be further from the truth ! Nor was the Wheat ever a tare. Remember Jesus words Matt 13:12-30. Neither were the Children of God ever the children of the devil.

    Amen to that Brother !

    Mat. 13:12-30 taught by Jesus clearly demonstrates Two seeds are in the world:

    The Seed of Christ [the Wheat], which were always the SHEEP.

    And the seed of the devil [the tares] which were always the GOATS.

    The Wicked Goats shall go into everlasting punishment Mat. 25:46a.

    But the Righteous Sheep into Life Eternal Mat. 25:46b.

    God determined the outcome according to His Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph. 3:11 !

    Job 23:13-14

    13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

    14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Nanja For Your Post:

    beloved57 (June 5th, 2019)

  5. #3
    TOL Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Carmarthenshire
    Posts
    8,715
    Thanks
    176
    Thanked 851 Times in 741 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    183818
    But before being brought into the fold they are lost sheep. Not geographically lost but having lost their innocence. "Adam, where art thou".
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Truster For Your Post:

    ok doser (June 5th, 2019)

  7. #4
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    19,404
    Thanks
    765
    Thanked 2,955 Times in 2,854 Posts

    Blog Entries
    19
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    47793
    Even though the Sheep were never goats, they were however at one time lost sheep. Remember the Parable Lk 15:1-6

    Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

    2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

    3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

    4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

    5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

    6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

    This Parable portion here applies to Christ who came to seek and to find and to save everyone of His Lost Sheep Lk 19:10

    10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

    See even though the sheep arent goats, they are naturally first in this world estranged and alienated from God like other lost people, the goats. Eph 4:18

    Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    Eph 2:2-3


    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    However because were Sheep gone astray, Our Shepherd finds us and puts us into a right fellowship with Himself and the Father 1 Jn 1:3

    That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    While in a lost state by nature, we dont have this fellowship !
    Last edited by beloved57; June 7th, 2019 at 10:06 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  8. #5
    TOL Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Carmarthenshire
    Posts
    8,715
    Thanks
    176
    Thanked 851 Times in 741 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    183818
    "While in a lost state by nature, we dont have this fellowship !"


    Finally admitting that there is enmity between the lost sheep and The Almighty, but not the sheep that have been found.

    Going to love witnessing you squirm your way out of this. AMR would be dancing.

    Plenty of room for squirming down below so squirm away.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

  9. #6
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    19,404
    Thanks
    765
    Thanked 2,955 Times in 2,854 Posts

    Blog Entries
    19
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    47793
    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    "While in a lost state by nature, we dont have this fellowship !"


    Finally admitting that there is enmity between the lost sheep and The Almighty, but not the sheep that have been found.

    Going to love witnessing you squirm your way out of this. AMR would be dancing.

    Plenty of room for squirming down below so squirm away.
    This has always been my position. God never had enmity against the Lost Sheep, but the Lost Sheep had enmity against God. Col 1:21

    21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to beloved57 For Your Post:

    Nanja (June 8th, 2019)

  11. #7
    TOL Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Carmarthenshire
    Posts
    8,715
    Thanks
    176
    Thanked 851 Times in 741 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    183818
    Which part of "now" is giving you so much trouble.

    Try squirming some more.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

  12. #8
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    19,404
    Thanks
    765
    Thanked 2,955 Times in 2,854 Posts

    Blog Entries
    19
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    47793
    As stated earlier:

    The Wheat was never a Tare, nor a Tare ever Wheat even though it may outwardly resemble.

    Matt 13:24-30

    24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

    25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

    26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

    27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

    28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

    29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to beloved57 For Your Post:

    Nanja (June 8th, 2019)

  14. #9
    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    734
    Thanks
    102
    Thanked 40 Times in 32 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    20035
    Agreed.

    The sheep are NOT repentant goats.
    The good seed are NOT repentant tares.
    Period.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  15. #10
    Maranatha Nanja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Motown
    Posts
    4,585
    Thanks
    2,656
    Thanked 914 Times in 881 Posts

    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    26544
    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Even though the Sheep were never goats, they were however at one time lost sheep. Remember the Parable Lk 15:1-6

    Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

    2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

    3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

    4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

    5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

    6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

    This Parable portion here applies to Christ who came to seek and to find and to save everyone of His Lost Sheep Lk 19:10

    10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

    See even though the sheep arent goats, they are naturally first in this world estranged and alienated from God like other lost people, the goats. Eph 4:18

    Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    Eph 2:2-3


    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    However because were Sheep gone astray, Our Shepherd finds us and puts us into a right fellowship with Himself and the Father 1 Jn 1:3

    That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    While in a lost state by nature, we dont have this fellowship !

    Amen, it's only once the Sheep [God's Vessels of Mercy Rom. 9:23], are Found that they can have Fellowship with the Father and Son 1 John 1:3; being given a new nature, are quickened out of that enmity by the Spirit.

    Eph. 2:4-5

    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

    Col. 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Nanja For Your Post:

    beloved57 (June 8th, 2019)

  17. #11
    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    734
    Thanks
    102
    Thanked 40 Times in 32 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    20035
    1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
    Well, to return, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray, were, at one time, part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from HIS care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must have involved some rebellion.

    Therefore, it is normally obvious that Peter is writing to some apostatized (gone astray) Christians (people of the flock). It is also normally apparent from context that what he was writing is intended for every new convert in every age since. Therefore, it seems normal that the Holy Spirit would have us believe that all of the Church has personally apostatized from Christ prior to their conversion in this life. Since we are conceived as sinners, it is easy to see that we apostatized from Christ before our conception and that is why we are sinners at our birth.

    I think that Peter bore added witness to this fact in 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ...which ...hath begotten us AGAIN unto a lively hope... Just when was the first time you were begotten by GOD? And when did you get unbegotten? Well, unless you are one of those earthly backslidden types, the only time such an un-begetting or rebellion could have taken place is prior to your conception. And since Peter is writing to the whole Church rather than to just the backslidden types, he must be referring to a pre-conception rebellion and the straying of HIS elect since that time, which straying or rebellion ends only upon conversion to obedience unto holiness to that Shepherd, that is, upon being born in Christ (begotten) again.

    Peace, Ted
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  18. #12
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    19,404
    Thanks
    765
    Thanked 2,955 Times in 2,854 Posts

    Blog Entries
    19
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    47793
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
    Well, to return, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray, were, at one time, part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from HIS care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must have involved some rebellion.

    Therefore, it is normally obvious that Peter is writing to some apostatized (gone astray) Christians (people of the flock). It is also normally apparent from context that what he was writing is intended for every new convert in every age since. Therefore, it seems normal that the Holy Spirit would have us believe that all of the Church has personally apostatized from Christ prior to their conversion in this life. Since we are conceived as sinners, it is easy to see that we apostatized from Christ before our conception and that is why we are sinners at our birth.

    I think that Peter bore added witness to this fact in 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ...which ...hath begotten us AGAIN unto a lively hope... Just when was the first time you were begotten by GOD? And when did you get unbegotten? Well, unless you are one of those earthly backslidden types, the only time such an un-begetting or rebellion could have taken place is prior to your conception. And since Peter is writing to the whole Church rather than to just the backslidden types, he must be referring to a pre-conception rebellion and the straying of HIS elect since that time, which straying or rebellion ends only upon conversion to obedience unto holiness to that Shepherd, that is, upon being born in Christ (begotten) again.

    Peace, Ted
    The Sheep sinned in Adam. Adam was their natural head in the beginning, he was a Son of God Lk 3:38

    38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

    So yes the Sheep went astray first and foremost in Adam. But they were still Sheep Isa 53:6

    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    But not all men are Sheep !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to beloved57 For Your Post:

    Nanja (June 9th, 2019)

  20. #13
    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Calfornia
    Posts
    9,142
    Thanks
    370
    Thanked 4,860 Times in 2,822 Posts

    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147748
    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    The Sheep sinned in Adam. Adam was their natural head in the beginning, he was a Son of God Lk 3:38

    38 [FONT="]Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

    [/FONT]
    So yes the Sheep went astray first and foremost in Adam. But they were still Sheep Isa 53:6

    6 [FONT="]All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the [/FONT][FONT="]Lord[/FONT] hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    But not all men are Sheep !
    Do you believe in faith plus works for salvation?
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us