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Thread: THE APOSTLES DID NOT PREACH THE SAME GOSPEL

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    Quote Originally Posted by DougE View Post
    Hello
    I wish I knew everything but here are some thoughts.
    Paul preached Christ just like the twelve.
    Paul believed and preached Jesus as Christ and the Son of God from the scriptures of Moses and the prophets.
    Paul went to the Jew first.
    Paul was not opposed to the twelve...they were preaching the kingdom on earth to Israel.
    Paul did not give offence to the Jews he also offered sacrifice and circumcised Timothy.
    Paul did not teach Jews to not follow the commandments which included baptism.
    Israel was still being offered the kingdom which required faith in Jesus as Messiah, Son of God and King and confession and baptism for remission of sins to be priests in the kingdom.
    Acts is a transitional book.
    Not everything was revealed to Paul all at once.
    Thanks for your thoughts.

    I agree Acts is transitional. It is the beginning of the church and it's growth. There are a couple of things I see that I would like to discuss. Instead of doing both and making it more complicated, I would like to start with one for now.

    You said the 12 were preaching the kingdom on earth and still offering it to Israel. Could you please point to passages where they are preaching that the kingdom is an earthly one.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Revealed by the Spirit or by Christ its the Same. Christ operates by His Spirit. And Paul and Peter preached the same Gospel, the One revealed by Christ or by His Spirit.
    Hello
    If Peter and Paul preach the same gospel then according to Peter in Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 if somebody repents and is baptized in the name of Jesus and believes that this alone saves they are lost.
    This is not the gospel found in Paul's epistles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DougE View Post
    Hello
    If Peter and Paul preach the same gospel then according to Peter in Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 if somebody repents and is baptized in the name of Jesus and believes that this alone saves they are lost.
    This is not the gospel found in Paul's epistles.
    Peter and Paul preachedI the same Gospel.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Peter and Paul preachedI the same Gospel.
    Hello
    Please show me the gospels from each.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DougE View Post
    Hello
    Please show me the gospels from each.
    Im not wasting my time with you. You study and research for yourself.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to beloved57 For Your Post:

    Nanja (June 9th, 2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Thanks for your thoughts.

    I agree Acts is transitional. It is the beginning of the church and it's growth. There are a couple of things I see that I would like to discuss. Instead of doing both and making it more complicated, I would like to start with one for now.

    You said the 12 were preaching the kingdom on earth and still offering it to Israel. Could you please point to passages where they are preaching that the kingdom is an earthly one.
    Hello
    Here are some verses Deuteronomy 30:5 Revelation 5:10 Daniel 7:18 Micah 4:2 Matthew 4:17 Jeremiah 23:5 Matthew 19:28 Luke 1:32 Luke 19:11 Matthew 24:14

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    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Im not wasting my time with you. You study and research for yourself.
    Then you shouldn't continue posting in his thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bibleverse2 View Post
    Note that the mystery of the Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) is revealed through the prophecy (Romans 16:25-26) when the prophecy is understood properly (Luke 24:45-47, Acts 26:22-23).

    That is, Christians can now understand how perfectly the Old Testament foretold the Gospel of the suffering and death of Christ for our sins, and His rising physically from the dead on the third day (Acts 26:22-23; 1 Corinthians 15:1-5, Luke 24:44-47). His suffering and death for our sins was foretold in Isaiah 53 (cf. Acts 8:32-35; 1 Peter 2:24). His crucifixion experience was foretold in Psalms 22 (cf. Matthew 27:46,35). His not remaining dead was foretold in Psalms 16:10 (cf. Acts 2:31). His rising from the dead on the third day was foretold in Hosea 6:2 (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:4, Luke 24:46, Colossians 2:12). The fact that Christ's New Covenant Gospel (Matthew 26:28) would go forth to save both Jews and Gentiles was foretold in Isaiah 49:6 and Isaiah 42:6 (cf. Acts 26:23b, Luke 24:47). For some other examples of how Jesus Christ fulfilled Old Testament scriptures at His first coming: He fulfilled Deuteronomy 18:15,18-19 (cf. Acts 3:22-24, Luke 24:44), and Zechariah 9:9 (cf. Matthew 21:4-5), and Psalms 118:22 (cf. Acts 4:11), and Isaiah 9:1-2 (cf. Matthew 4:12-16), and Psalms 110:4 (cf. Hebrews 6:20).



    Note that they are the same thing (Colossians 1:18).
    That's all correct.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    That's utter nonsense as Paul did not "theorize" anything.
    That's correct. Paul was an Apostle. Everything Paul wrote and taught verbally are the Word of God, just as with the other Apostles. The Apostles are our source of the Word of Christ, since He only wrote one brief letter Himself, that was private and personal in nature, and not concerning faith and morals, except only peripherally. Imagine our faith in Christ, if the Apostles were only "theorizing!" What a mess!
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    No, basically the theology of Christianity can be said to be theorized by Paul, as Paul's letters are the fundamental part of the theology.

    The 4 gospels are accounts of testimonies of Jesus' deeds and speeches. Because it's all about how Jesus is eye-witnessed, it's not the place here to theorize anything. They are just plainly recordings of what is said and witnessed. John's gospel is a bit different and thus involves more theology contents.

    The same can be said to Acts. Acts is more of the recordings of the apostles' deeds.

    The theology itself starts with Paul's epistles. Romans contains a lot of in-depth theology contents about what the New Covenant is as a covenant. So are other epistles of Paul.

    To put it another way, no apostles other than Paul can come up with what have been said in books such as Romans or Hebrews (if you accept that it's from Paul).

    If you failed to speculate this, it's you who are plainly silly.
    That might make sense outside the fold of the Catholic Church, but inside the fold, we just heed our bishops, who preserve and relay to us what the Apostles taught in all matters of faith and morals.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by DougE View Post
    Hello
    Here are some verses Deuteronomy 30:5 Revelation 5:10 Daniel 7:18 Micah 4:2 Matthew 4:17 Jeremiah 23:5 Matthew 19:28 Luke 1:32 Luke 19:11 Matthew 24:14
    Thanks for the verses.

    I'm asking about Jesus and the 12 offering an earthly kingdom. None of those NT verses tell us it's an earthly kingdom.

    When Jesus is teaching the Jews about the coming kingdom, what does he call it?

    During Jesus' ministry He describes the kingdom He is offering many times. Can you point to a passage where Jesus is describing the kingdom like the earthly kingdom you envision?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Thanks for the verses.

    I'm asking about Jesus and the 12 offering an earthly kingdom. None of those NT verses tell us it's an earthly kingdom.

    When Jesus is teaching the Jews about the coming kingdom, what does he call it?

    During Jesus' ministry He describes the kingdom He is offering many times. Can you point to a passage where Jesus is describing the kingdom like the earthly kingdom you envision?
    Hello
    I don't know of a verse that you are looking for. You have to take verses like Matthew 16:19 and Luke 11:2 and take all the verses in the Bible and make conclusions.

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    TOL Subscriber turbosixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougE View Post
    Hello
    I don't know of a verse that you are looking for. You have to take verses like Matthew 16:19 and Luke 11:2 and take all the verses in the Bible and make conclusions.
    My point is, if Jesus and the 12 were offering the earthly kingdom to Israel someone should be able to point to multiple passages that show they are offering it. I personally don't know of any passages that speak of an earthly kingdom but many to the contrary.

    I suggest to you the Jews misunderstood the prophecies taking them literally when actually they're spiritual in nature. The prophets are just using terms they can relate to. For example, do you believe heaven has streets of gold? Of course not, but that is the finest road material we can relate to.

    When Jesus teaches about the kingdom, He calls it the kingdom of heaven. When He describes the kingdom it doesn't look like an earthly physical kingdom, it looks like to the church. For example, in the parable of the sower.

    Matt. 13:18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.
    And so on.


    You said:
    Quote Originally Posted by DougE View Post
    Paul was not opposed to the twelve...they were preaching the kingdom on earth to Israel.

    Israel was still being offered the kingdom which required faith in Jesus as Messiah, Son of God and King and confession and baptism for remission of sins to be priests in the kingdom.
    Paul preached and converted Christians the exact same way as the 12.
    Acts 8:13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip.
    Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

    So my question is where/what is the difference?

    Respectfully,
    Tom
    Last edited by turbosixx; June 11th, 2019 at 03:45 AM.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    My point is, if Jesus and the 12 were offering the earthly kingdom to Israel someone should be able to point to multiple passages that show they are offering it. I personally don't know of any passages that speak of an earthly kingdom but many to the contrary. I suggest to you the Jews misunderstood the prophecies taking them literally when actually they're spiritual in nature.

    When Jesus teaches about the kingdom, He calls it the kingdom of heaven. When He describes the kingdom it doesn't look like an earthly physical kingdom, it looks like to the church. For example, in the parable of the sower.

    Matt. 13:18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.
    And so on.


    You said:


    Paul preached and converted Christians the exact same way as the 12.
    Acts 8:13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip.
    Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

    So my question is where/what is the difference?

    Respectfully,
    Tom
    Hello
    There are verses that speak of Israel being given the land for ever Genesis 13:15 ; that is on the earth

    Israel was promised to be a kingdom of priests in Exodus 19:6
    Revelation 5:10 says they will be priests and reign on the earth.
    Take these two together and I can conclude that since there is no promise to the church as being priests it must refer to Israel.
    Take it all together the kingdom is for Israel on earth.

    The gospel of the kingdom was preached in Matthew 4:23 and if the kingdom is being preached I can conclude it is the kingdom on earth for Israel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DougE View Post
    Hello
    There are verses that speak of Israel being given the land for ever Genesis 13:15 ; that is on the earth
    I suggest it was conditional, Deut. 28. Look at Israel's history. They have not always possed the land. God drove them out, had them carried off into captivity or ruled by another nation whenever they were not obeying His commandments.

    Quote Originally Posted by DougE View Post
    Israel was promised to be a kingdom of priests in Exodus 19:6
    Revelation 5:10 says they will be priests and reign on the earth.
    Take these two together and I can conclude that since there is no promise to the church as being priests it must refer to Israel.
    Take it all together the kingdom is for Israel on earth.

    The gospel of the kingdom was preached in Matthew 4:23 and if the kingdom is being preached I can conclude it is the kingdom on earth for Israel.
    I can see how you could come to that conclusion but that is really not evidence proving it's earthly and not spiritual. Please consider this. Jesus said the kingdom was at hand and that people He was speaking to would see it come.
    Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
    Lk. 9:27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”


    If the kingdom/church wasn't established, what is the good news Philip is preaching about it?
    Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

    If the kingdom/church wasn't established, why is Paul saying we have been transferred into it?
    Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
    Last edited by turbosixx; June 11th, 2019 at 04:05 AM.
    Wretched man that I am.

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