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Thread: The false gospel of grace

  1. #31
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Do you believe in Jesus. Are you a Jew? You and I are Part of the "other".
    Yes. No. And no.

    We are gentiles who are sons of Abraham, not Israel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    The term "other sheep" refers to the Gentiles (Isaiah 56:6-8 and Ephesians 3:6).
    No, it does not and your scripture does not show that it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    After Jesus death and resurrection the good news went out into the world, and Christ's sheep among the Gentiles responded to the Good Shepards voice. All who were chosen for eternal life became believers (Acts 13:48).
    In Acts 2:22, after Jesus' resurrection, Peter was still preaching to Israel only.

    The "no difference" between Jews and gentiles comes later and was revealed to and through the apostle Paul.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  5. #33
    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    No, it does not and your scripture does not show that it does.


    In Acts 2:22, after Jesus' resurrection, Peter was still preaching to Israel only.

    The "no difference" between Jews and gentiles comes later and was revealed to and through the apostle Paul.
    What you are saying is that if you are not a Jew you cannot be a follower of Jesus
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    What you are saying is that if you are not a Jew you cannot be a follower of Jesus
    Where, specifically, did he say that?

    Because I'm not seeing it.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Where, specifically, did he say that?

    Because I'm not seeing it.
    You and Right Divider have both said it. If you are not a Jew, you cannot be a sheep.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    You and Right Divider have both said it. If you are not a Jew, you cannot be a sheep.
    That's not what you asserted.

    This is what you asserted:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    What you are saying is that if you are not a Jew you cannot be a follower of Jesus
    Where did we say that if one is not a Jew (and I'll even go so far as to include proselytes in that too) he is not a follower of Christ?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    That's not what you asserted.

    This is what you asserted:Where did we say that if one is not a Jew (and I'll even go so far as to include proselytes in that too) he is not a follower of Christ?
    Answer the question honestly. Can Gentiles be sheep of Christ?
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

  12. #38
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Answer the question honestly. Can Gentiles be sheep of Christ?
    Under the current dispensation, no. Disciples, sure, followers, sure. Sheep? No. That title was reserved for the people in covenant with God through Israel's "program."

    However, under the previous covenant of circumcision, yes, Gentiles could become sheep.

    Isaiah, recording God's words, describes these people in the passage you provided earlier.

    “Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, And to love the name of the Lord , to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant—Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, “Yet I will gather to him Others besides those who are gathered to him.” - Isaiah 56:6-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

    Note that the passage US making the distinction between foreigner (Gentile) and those who hold the covenant (Israel).

    Contrast that with Paul saying there is no longer Jew nor Gentile.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Under the current dispensation, no. Disciples, sure, followers, sure. Sheep? No. That title was reserved for the people in covenant with God through Israel's "program."

    However, under the previous covenant of circumcision, yes, Gentiles could become sheep.

    Isaiah, recording God's words, describes these people in the passage you provided earlier.

    “Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, And to love the name of the Lord , to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant—Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, “Yet I will gather to him Others besides those who are gathered to him.” - Isaiah 56:6-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

    Note that the passage US making the distinction between foreigner (Gentile) and those who hold the covenant (Israel).

    Contrast that with Paul saying there is no longer Jew nor Gentile.
    Then who are the other sheep in John 16:10?
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Then who are the other sheep in John 16:10?
    Check your reference... No sheep in that verse.

  16. #41
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobie View Post
    And yet the main theme that people are told is the law is done away with...
    Do you mean like this...

    Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

    Isn't fascinating how Paul was repeatedly accused of preaching that believers have license to sin that grace may abound?

    Have you ever, even one single time in your whole life been accused of preaching such a thing? Would it even be possible for someone to misunderstand your gospel message in such a way? If not, then it is you who are preaching a false gospel because the fact that we ought not sin that grace may abound doesn't mean that it wouldn't do so. In fact, it absolutely would, otherwise grace would be law.

    Romans 4: 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

    5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

    7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
    And whose sins are covered;
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

    grace takes care of your sins,
    I've never heard anyone but you use this phrase, not in the way you intend it anyway. It is Christ's blood that takes care of sin. Grace is what imputes that forgiveness to me, which is God's response to my belief. It is neither my good works nor my avoidance of sin that promps God to hide me in Christ and impute His righteousness to me but rather it is my faith in Him and in His finished work at the Cross, His resurrection from the dead and NOTHING else.

    ....don't worry its all fine to keep on sinning.
    Yet another phrase that I have never heard anyone preach - ever! Not even one single time have I ever heard anyone ever say that is was fine to keep on sinning. I've heard plenty of people get slanderously reported as having preached this, the Apostle Paul being the most prominent, but the whole point is that the accusation was slanderous (i.e. not true).

    Who exactly are these preachers of whom you speak anyway? Can you name one?

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  18. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    What you are saying is that if you are not a Jew you cannot be a follower of Jesus
    No I am not saying that and I get very tired of these FALSE accusations.

    What I am saying is simply what the Bible says. There was a time that God separated Israel from the other people on earth. When Jesus came, they were still His people. Gentiles were always allowed to join with Israel.

    Then, God did something different and Israel was no longer separate. They were FALLEN just like the vast majority of gentiles. God conclude THEM ALL in unbelief that He might has mercy on them all (alike). This was revealed to and through the apostle Paul.

    Someday, when Christ returns to establish His kingdom, God will restore Israel to their prominent place above the gentile nations.

    It's all very clear in the Bible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  20. #43
    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    No I am not saying that and I get very tired of these FALSE accusations.

    What I am saying is simply what the Bible says. There was a time that God separated Israel from the other people on earth. When Jesus came, they were still His people. Gentiles were always allowed to join with Israel.

    Then, God did something different and Israel was no longer separate. They were FALLEN just like the vast majority of gentiles. God conclude THEM ALL in unbelief that He might has mercy on them all (alike). This was revealed to and through the apostle Paul.

    Someday, when Christ returns to establish His kingdom, God will restore Israel to their prominent place above the gentile nations.

    It's all very clear in the Bible.
    So do you agree that the "other" sheep in John 10:16 are Gentiles?
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    So do you agree that the "other" sheep in John 10:16 are Gentiles?
    BR... please try to pay attention and use logical reasoning.

    NO, the other SHEEP are NOT gentiles... God never uses that term to describe gentiles.... God uses that term to speak about His people, Israel.

    I demonstrated CLEARLY from the scripture that the "other sheep" were Israelite's scattered into gentiles lands.

    Paul NEVER calls believers sheep. The word only shows up ONCE in all of Paul's epistles

    Rom 8:35-37 KJV Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

    Here Paul is QUOTING the old testament and saying NAY (NO) we are NOT "sheep for the slaughter".
    Last edited by Right Divider; August 26th, 2019 at 08:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  23. #45
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    So do you agree that the "other" sheep in John 10:16 are Gentiles?
    I very much doubt it!

    Not only is the term "sheep" used consistently throughout the bible as a symble of Israel, (a big reason being because of the Passover Lamb coming through Israel), but also Jesus had not come but to the "the lost sheep of the House of Israel" (Matthew 15:24) and so any referrence to Gentiles here would have been out of place, or, at the very least, cryptic in the extreme (i.e. meaningless to His audience).

    It seems much more reasonable to think that Jesus is simply saying that He intends to gather together all the Jews who were scattered all over the place (i.e. outside of Israel). Jesus even used this idea of scattered sheep just a couple a verses before...

    John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.

    And it is a common theme throughout the bible...

    Ezekiel 11:16
    Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Although I have cast them far off among the Gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet I shall be a little sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone.” ’ 17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.” ’

    Ezekiel 34:20 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God to them: “Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd.

    30 Thus they shall know that I, the Lord their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people,” says the Lord God.’
    31 “You are My flock, the flock of My pasture; you are men, and I am your God,” says the Lord God.

    Psalms 44:11
    You have given us up like sheep intended for food,
    And have scattered us among the nations.

    Jeremiah 31:10
    “Hear the word of the Lord, O nations,
    And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
    ‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
    And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’

    Jeremiah 50:17
    “Israel is like scattered sheep;
    The lions have driven him away.
    First the king of Assyria devoured him;
    Now at last this Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has broken his bones.”

    18 Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel:
    “Behold, I will punish the king of Babylon and his land,
    As I have punished the king of Assyria.
    19 But I will bring back Israel to his home....

    Micah 2:12
    “I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob,
    I will surely gather the remnant of Israel;
    I will put them together like sheep of the fold,
    Last edited by Clete; August 26th, 2019 at 08:33 AM.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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