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Thread: Could Christ have sinned?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobie View Post
    Matthew 4:1
    Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

    I came across the view that Christians do not believe that Christ could have sinned and failed in his mission on earth. Well then how could he be 'tempted in the desert'? Was it all a charade or could Christ have sinned?
    He could have since he wast tempted to, but decided to do the will of the Father

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    Journeyman Hobie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    He could have since he wast tempted to, but decided to do the will of the Father
    Like all of us, we can decide to do the will of the Father, and resist temptation. Christ was our example in all ways and especially in overcoming sin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobie View Post
    Matthew 4:1
    Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

    I came across the view that Christians do not believe that Christ could have sinned and failed in his mission on earth. Well then how could he be 'tempted in the desert'? Was it all a charade or could Christ have sinned?
    There are people who call themselves Christians who believe that Christ was incapable of sin but I doubt their sincerity, I doubt their faith, I doubt their salvation.

    The CALVINIST doctrine of impeccability, (yes, it is absolutely a Calvinist doctrine - well, actually it is an Augustinian doctrine but Calvinism is just reformed Augustinianism so...) is the epitome of heresy and undermines the truthfulness of scripture and thus the entire Christian faith.

    If Christ was incapable of sinning, then Matthew chapter four is a lie. It isn't merely a meaningless charade as you mention in your opening post, it's far worse than that! If Jesus could not sin then Satan could not tempt Him. If Jesus was not tempted then Matthew 4 and Hebrews 4 are both false!

    The heresy of impeccability is built primarily on the same faulty premise that all the other Calvinist doctrines are based. That premise being the ABSOLUTE immutability of God. A doctrine that finds it's origin in pagan Greek philosophy (i.e. Aristotle), not the bible. But that isn't the only premise upon which people have built this doctrine.

    Aquinas wrote, ‘Were an engraver's hand itself the rule that should direct his engraving, then he could never engrave other than rightly; but just so far as the rightness of his work is measured by a rule other than the power of his hand, it is always possible that his work be done either well or not well. Now whatever the divine will does has only the divine will for its rule; for that will has no end or measure beyond itself. But each created will only acts aright so far as it conforms to the rule of God's will, which is the ultimate measure … Therefore it is only the divine will that can never go wrong; and every created will…can go wrong.’ Summa Theologise Ia. 63. 1.

    Note the implication that whatever God wills is, by definition, good. If that is so, then it is meaningless to call God good. In fact, if that is so then it is meaningless to call anything good in any moral sense because if God were to will differently tomorrow, then the definition of good would change. The concept of goodness is thus rendered arbitrary (i.e. it's opposite).

    Calvinists (and other Augustinian theologians) will respond to this by declaring that God cannot change and thus His will cannot change and we are back to the absolute immutability doctrine as the true basis of the doctrine.

    But if God cannot change then God cannot become a man. If God cannot become a man then Jesus was not God. If Jesus was not God then where's the issue with Him being tempted? (That, of course, leaves aside the fact that if Jesus is not God then Christianity falls into dust.)

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    There are people who call themselves Christians who believe that Christ was incapable of sin but I doubt their sincerity, I doubt their faith, I doubt their salvation.

    The CALVINIST doctrine of impeccability, (yes, it is absolutely a Calvinist doctrine - well, actually it is an Augustinian doctrine but Calvinism is just reformed Augustinianism so...) is the epitome of heresy and undermines the truthfulness of scripture and thus the entire Christian faith.

    If Christ was incapable of sinning, then Matthew chapter four is a lie. It isn't merely a meaningless charade as you mention in your opening post, it's far worse than that! If Jesus could not sin then Satan could not tempt Him. If Jesus was not tempted then Matthew 4 and Hebrews 4 are both false!

    The heresy of impeccability is built primarily on the same faulty premise that all the other Calvinist doctrines are based. That premise being the ABSOLUTE immutability of God. A doctrine that finds it's origin in pagan Greek philosophy (i.e. Aristotle), not the bible. But that isn't the only premise upon which people have built this doctrine.

    Aquinas wrote, ‘Were an engraver's hand itself the rule that should direct his engraving, then he could never engrave other than rightly; but just so far as the rightness of his work is measured by a rule other than the power of his hand, it is always possible that his work be done either well or not well. Now whatever the divine will does has only the divine will for its rule; for that will has no end or measure beyond itself. But each created will only acts aright so far as it conforms to the rule of God's will, which is the ultimate measure … Therefore it is only the divine will that can never go wrong; and every created will…can go wrong.’ Summa Theologise Ia. 63. 1.

    Note the implication that whatever God wills is, by definition, good. If that is so, then it is meaningless to call God good. In fact, if that is so then it is meaningless to call anything good in any moral sense because if God were to will differently tomorrow, then the definition of good would change. The concept of goodness is thus rendered arbitrary (i.e. it's opposite).

    Calvinists (and other Augustinian theologians) will respond to this by declaring that God cannot change and thus His will cannot change and we are back to the absolute immutability doctrine as the true basis of the doctrine.

    But if God cannot change then God cannot become a man. If God cannot become a man then Jesus was not God. If Jesus was not God then where's the issue with Him being tempted? (That, of course, leaves aside the fact that if Jesus is not God then Christianity falls into dust.)

    Clete
    "If Jesus could not sin then Satan could not tempt Him."

    Islam at it's finest, this thread is closed.
    Abraham did not do such things.... (John 8:40)

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0de View Post
    "If Jesus could not sin then Satan could not tempt Him."

    Islam at it's finest, this thread is closed.
    This site is absolutely full to the brim and over flowing with people who wouldn't know a rational thought from a hole in the ground.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    This site is absolutely full to the brim and over flowing with people who wouldn't know a rational thought from a hole in the ground.
    A careful and thorough exegesis will show the hollowness of this justification.
    Abraham did not do such things.... (John 8:40)

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by k0de View Post
    A careful and thorough exegesis will show the hollowness of this justification.
    From where did you cut and paste that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    From where did you cut and paste that?
    The internet, .
    Abraham did not do such things.... (John 8:40)

  12. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by k0de View Post
    The internet, .
    That much was obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    That much was obvious.
    Knowledge at my fingers tips. Dangerously feeling something like Henry Ford.
    Abraham did not do such things.... (John 8:40)

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0de View Post
    Knowledge at my fingers tips. Dangerously feeling something like Henry Ford.
    Clete's point still stands. Your comment earlier was completely illogical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Clete's point still stands. Your comment earlier was completely illogical.
    We're both entitled to agree or disagree.

    But, since I got your attention. And, you well know that I have high respect for your judgement and interpretation of the Bible.

    Show me where in Bible that is say that Jesus sin?
    Abraham did not do such things.... (John 8:40)

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0de View Post
    We're both entitled to agree or disagree.

    But, since I got your attention. And, you well know that I have high respect for your judgement and interpretation of the Bible.

    Show me where in Bible that is say that Jesus sin?
    I never said any such thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Right Divider For Your Post:

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    Quote Originally Posted by clete;
    If Christ was incapable of sinning, then Matthew chapter four is a lie. It isn't merely a meaningless charade as you mention in your opening post, it's far worse than that! If Jesus could not sin then Satan could not tempt Him.
    What did I miss?
    Abraham did not do such things.... (John 8:40)

  20. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by k0de View Post
    What did I miss?
    I think you missed adding a word here...

    Quote Originally Posted by k0de View Post
    Show me where in Bible that is say that Jesus sin?

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