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    Satan

    We know Satan doesn't work against himself (luke 11:18)

    but in (Luke 22:1-6)we been told satan the one who entered into Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus

    and handle him to the jews to kill him.

    So, how Satan and god both were in agreement to kill Jesus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleander View Post
    We know Satan doesn't work against himself (luke 11:18)

    but in (Luke 22:1-6)we been told satan the one who entered into Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus

    and handle him to the jews to kill him.

    So, how Satan and god both were in agreement to kill Jesus?
    What Jesus accomplished on the cross turned the tables on sin and death. God gave Jesus the authority to lay down His life and take it up again. There is a scripture for it. God sent His Son to be the Savior of the world. The same. There were people who became His betrayers and murderers, another one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleander View Post
    We know Satan doesn't work against himself (luke 11:18)

    but in (Luke 22:1-6)we been told satan the one who entered into Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus

    and handle him to the jews to kill him.

    So, how Satan and god both were in agreement to kill Jesus?
    I'm not sure if this will even partly answer your question, but my mind goes to the book of Job. God directed Satan to Job. Not once, but twice (Job 1:8 and Job 2:3)! One might think Satan would get suspicious of God doing such a thing - but I think that (at least in part) is a result of a wrong idea of Satan and God. If we look at human history as something of a chess match between a Grandmaster (God) and a decent amateur player, I think we already are seriously skewing the truth. That makes the fall something of an accident that God has to patch up and the last several thousand years the time God has taken to get to the point where He can properly do that. But there is something said about Him that is unique - that He knows all His works completely ahead of time (Isaiah 45:21 and Acts 15:18). Which means He must know all things ahead of time since if there is anything that can't be called "His works" He has to know how His works will be affected (and affect them). Thus, in one sense or another, all things are His works - all things are of God (ultimately). As Isaiah says, He makes peace and creates evil (He is NOT the author of sin, but He also isn't merely reacting to it appearing at some point in history). So the story of Job should make us realize that God is not simply outsmarting Satan over and over again - as though sin keeps on rearing its ugly head and God keeps having to do something about it - but from the beginning, the Lord's work was accomplished and we are seeing it worked out over time.

    I suspect - and I don't have the sophistication to prove it biblically (but nothing against it, that I am aware of) - that when Satan was cast out of the garden, everything was already decreed by God. That is, He could already foretell Christ (Gen 3:15) because what He had done was eternally complete (Rev 13:8 certainly seems to hint at that as well). Thus everything that would happen from day 1 to the end will ultimately glorify God. Even what seems utterly evil (Psalm 76:10). Which means that when Satan presented himself to God, it wasn't "God's move" (so to speak) but it was Satan as an ultimate servant of the will of God. It's hard to comprehend, but the easiest way I know to grasp it is to realize that God works all things according to the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11 and Isaiah 46:10). Men can conspire to overthrow the will of God, but it will not happen (Isaiah 8:10). Satan can do what he is able, but he is still subservient to God. See Zechariah 3:1-4 and you will see that Satan can make accusations (and as seen in Job, bring calamity) but God rebukes him for Joshua's sake. In other words, Satan is working to undermine God but it is simply impossible to do. God has provided for Joshua just like He provided for the world. Satan is blinded by self (I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High - Isaiah 14:14).

    So to address your points specifically :

    1. Satan actually does work against himself in that he is trying to undermine God! That means there is a sense in which he is blinded by pride and can't see what should be plain - there can come no benefit to one's self by resisting God.
    2. Satan (I believe) knew that the only way to thwart Christ's ministry and purpose (assuming that were even possible) was to divert Him from the path He was on. I think Satan knew that the cross was his (Satan's) ultimate point of public defeat (Jesus said I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven - Luke 10:18). It is pretty plain from Jesus' temptation in the wilderness that Satan realized all this. And Jesus even called Peter "Satan" when he protested against Jesus going to die. So I don't think there is a question (not in my mind, at least) that Satan knew what he had to do if Jesus were to fail (again, even assuming there was any possibility of that).
    3. So when it comes to Satan entering into Judas, I see that as fulfillment of prophecy (Zech 11:12,13) and Satan in a position where it was more him aiming all his hatred and venom at Christ by bringing one of Jesus' own disciples to the point of betraying Him. Again...Jesus said from the beginning that He knew what His situation was and what was to happen (Have not I chosen you twelve and one of you is a devil? - John 6:70). But when He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane to have the cup pass from Him (if there was any other way to accomplish what was needed) it shows me that Satan (who would not have the same understanding of Christ's "mission") probably also had it in the back of his mind that he might be able to pull off something at the last minute if he could put serious doubts into the minds of the disciples. They all forsook Christ, remember.


    The bottom line, is that I think that the only reason Satan and God were "agreed" on Jesus dying was because Satan hoped he could have that death ultimately have a different result (either abject failure resulting in no fulfillment because Christ yielded to temptation in the wilderness or driving all the disciples away by tainting Christ's death with the betrayal of one of His own). But remember - that's just the way I see it. I could be wrong.
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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    Think you.
    The scripture told us by Jesus own mouth, satan can't work against himself or he'll destroyed.
    Satan disobey God from the beginning and he knows for Jesus to stay alive will cause him big headaches.
    I understand from your answer, the ones who killed Jesus, also they did only the will of God, then why they were condemned throughout the NT?
    Did God was pleased of the ones who put Jesus to death?
    If yes, then why the apostles condemn the killers?
    Why Jesus hide himself and walk in the dark to avoid the Jews?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleander View Post
    Think you.
    The scripture told us by Jesus own mouth, satan can't work against himself or he'll destroyed.
    Satan disobey God from the beginning and he knows for Jesus to stay alive will cause him big headaches.
    I understand from your answer, the ones who killed Jesus, also they did only the will of God, then why they were condemned throughout the NT?
    Did God was pleased of the ones who put Jesus to death?
    If yes, then why the apostles condemn the killers?
    Why Jesus hide himself and walk in the dark to avoid the Jews?
    Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
    Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    Acts 2:22-23

    Determinate counsel means God directed the delivering of Christ into the hands of men and knew precisely what He was doing.

    The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
    For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
    For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

    Acts 4:26-28

    It seems that this very crucifixion was determined by God. He intentionally put Christ into the hands of sinful men and knew precisely what He was doing and what would be the outcome of it. The state of mankind was (and is) such that it cannot and will not receive the truth unless given a heart to do so. No man can come to Jesus except he be drawn by the Father. So God knew precisely what He was doing and man was only doing what was already in His heart. That does not make God responsible for man's sin. The Romans and Jews did not get a "thank you" for doing that which would bring about salvation being introduced into the world - rather they were condemned for doing that which was in their hearts - that they would do such a thing to the Lord of glory. They reveal their Satanic alliance. The ends are not in man's hands - that is in God's hands alone. A man's heart devises his {own} way; but the Lord directs his steps. The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord. Even the wrath of man shall praise Him; the remainder of wrath shall He restrain. Man is judged for his heart - for from that comes his actions.

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

    Jeremiah 17:9-10

    If murder were not in man's heart, then Christ coming to earth would have resulted in something very different. But because of what is there, they are condemned by their actions.

    As to why Jesus walked carefully among Israel, He knew what was in man and in his heart. And so He also knew the ruling Jews would not receive Him. Thus, He spoke to them only briefly - enough to prove their unbelief and unwillingness to follow Him. Then, when they started plotting to put Him to death, the condemnation was sealed and so He "...walked no more openly among the Jews..." (John 11:54). He (I believe) wanted to not hurry the time approaching for Him to be crucified so that He could continue among His people (preaching, teaching and healing). The thing that told Him His time had come was when word reached outside Israel to the Greeks

    And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
    The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
    Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
    And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

    John 12:20-23


    I think that's also why He said (on more than one occasion) to someone He had healed : "Tell no one". The quicker His fame spread, the sooner the Gentiles from outside of Israel would show up and seek after Him. He was, remember, only sent to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel (Matthew 15:24). They were to be given ample opportunity to receive the gospel before the message was to go to the rest of the world. That's why (I believe) Jesus said this in John 20.

    I hope that answers your questions (or comes close to addressing them).
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleander View Post
    Think you.
    The scripture told us by Jesus own mouth, satan can't work against himself or he'll destroyed.
    Satan disobey God from the beginning and he knows for Jesus to stay alive will cause him big headaches.
    I understand from your answer, the ones who killed Jesus, also they did only the will of God, then why they were condemned throughout the NT?
    Did God was pleased of the ones who put Jesus to death?
    If yes, then why the apostles condemn the killers?
    Why Jesus hide himself and walk in the dark to avoid the Jews?
    Jesus did not walk in the dark as you say. It is always wrong to sin, and certainly those who put Jesus to death sinned when they did so.

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    Thank you,
    If we look at the parable of the tenants carefully, we'll see God:
    1) didn't sent his son to die but to be respected.
    2) He was not pleased of what the killer of his son did, by punishing them and take away the covenant between him and them and give it to other nation.
    Please read Matt. 21:33-46
    Beside, there are no where in the scripture where God, his prophets or Jesus demand the death of God, his son or any man so we can receive salvation.
    On the contrary God hate, and never approved or ask for human sacrifices and animals sacrifice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleander View Post
    Thank you,
    If we look at the parable of the tenants carefully, we'll see God:
    1) didn't sent his son to die but to be respected.
    2) He was not pleased of what the killer of his son did, by punishing them and take away the covenant between him and them and give it to other nation.
    Please read Matt. 21:33-46
    Beside, there are no where in the scripture where God, his prophets or Jesus demand the death of God, his son or any man so we can receive salvation.
    On the contrary God hate, and never approved or ask for human sacrifices and animals sacrifice.
    Interesting thoughts. I believe that animal sacrifice is of God when done according to the Torah. Human sacrifice has never been okay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleander View Post
    Thank you,
    If we look at the parable of the tenants carefully, we'll see God:
    1) didn't sent his son to die but to be respected.
    This is absolutely wrong. You are taking a parable and putting a meaning into it that was never intended. A parable is intended to illustrate a point but not all parts of it are to be literally taken to their logical extent. Whether or not they reverence the son has no bearing on the reason the son came :

    Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
    Matthew 20:28

    Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
    John 12:27

    From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
    Matthew 16:21

    It is clear what He came for. There is no ambiguity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oleander View Post
    2) He was not pleased of what the killer of his son did, by punishing them and take away the covenant between him and them and give it to other nation.
    Please read Matt. 21:33-46
    Beside, there are no where in the scripture where God, his prophets or Jesus demand the death of God, his son or any man so we can receive salvation.
    On the contrary God hate, and never approved or ask for human sacrifices and animals sacrifice.
    You are wrong about this. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Hebrews 9:22) and more clearly, it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement (Lev 7:11)
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    This is absolutely wrong. You are taking a parable and putting a meaning into it that was never intended. A parable is intended to illustrate a point but not all parts of it are to be literally taken to their logical extent. Whether or not they reverence the son has no bearing on the reason the son came :

    Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
    Matthew 20:28

    Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
    John 12:27

    From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
    Matthew 16:21

    It is clear what He came for. There is no ambiguity.



    You are wrong about this. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Hebrews 9:22) and more clearly, it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement (Lev 7:11)
    Good answer Sir.

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    God never command the sacrifice system to wipe out sins.
    Sacrifices were made by man as (penalty) for unintentional sins.
    I don't think. If this was command from God why then all the prophets condemn the pratice?
    Why if it was a command, God will declare:
    I never command the sacrifice system.
    Can you show me when a man commits a intentional sin what kind of sacrifice he should offer. NONE.
    Sacrifices were made by the levites so they can make living.
    Just ask Jesus why he turn the table on their heads when he enter the temple?
    Look at the book of Isaiah 1st chapter and how he condemned the jews for shedding blood?
    Do you think he will do such a thing if it was God's law or commandment?
    Jesus message was: repent the kingdom of God on hand.
    Thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Interesting thoughts. I believe that animal sacrifice is of God when done according to the Torah. Human sacrifice has never been okay.
    So, was God wrong to command Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? Yes, He did provide a ram as replacement, just as Jesus is the Lamb He chose to replace ALL sacrifices; but nevertheless: He did command Abraham to offer Isaac on the altar of sacrifice.
    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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    God was testing Abraham's obedience .
    It has nothing to do with sacrifice for sins.

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    Why they sin, if they were doing the will of God?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleander View Post
    God was testing Abraham's obedience .
    It has nothing to do with sacrifice for sins.
    So you believe God was testing Abraham to see if he would obey God in committing something He (God) condemns?!? That is not the God of scripture. God said He would provide the sacrifice Himself. So it is clear He didn't condemn or abhor the practice.
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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