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Thread: Is Jesus God?

  1. #61
    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings betsy123 (and Greetings again Bright Raven), The following is a repeat of my post #18 which was in answer to Bright Raven. I am not sure if Bright Raven read this as he may have been busy, but I repeat it here in response to your post:
    Different to many non-Trinitarians I do not believe that it is speaking of Jesus in John 1:1, but that “the Word” is a personification similar to the Wise Woman “Wisdom” in Proverbs 8. Jesus is revealed in John 1:14 and this is not speaking of his physical glory, but his moral glory, he was full of grace and truth.

    There is a connection between John 1:14 and the following:
    Exodus 34:5–7 (KJV): 5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
    Moses had asked to see the Glory of Yahweh, and this was revealed in physical glory that Moses could not fully behold, and also the declaration of the above moral glory. The phrase “abundant in goodness and truth” is similar to or a direct connection with "full of grace and truth", the character revealed in Jesus during his ministry. Thus John 1:1 is not talking about a separate physical being, but the moral character of God, the thoughts and plans of God, and the wisdom behind God’s spoken word and all of this finds its focus in God's Son.

    Please consider the partial personification of God’s “word” in the following:
    Psalm 33:6,9 (KJV): 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
    Isaiah 55:8–11 (KJV): 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


    Another aspect of John 1:14 is that the moral glory revealed in Jesus is attributable to the fact that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father. Trinitarians avoid this, or try to replace this with another idea, but this refers to the fact that God the Father was the father of Jesus Christ, and the other two Gospel records reveal this truth Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35. The physical glory of Jesus was temporarily revealed at the Mount of Transfiguration and was not part of Jesus during his ministry.

    Also note that John 1:14 says that the Word was made flesh. It does not say that God the Son added flesh to His existing Divinity, making him a God-man. All that the Word was became focused and complete in Jesus the Son of God. There is One God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor,

    The NIV states that the Word became flesh. If the Word became flesh, that flesh became someone. The question is whom? The Spurgeon Study Bible says: "We cannot describe the deity of Christ in clearer language than John uses. He was with God. He was God. He did the works of god for He was the Creator. If any doubt His deity, they must do so in the distinct defiance of the language of Holy Scripture".
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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  3. #62
    Over 2000 post club nikolai_42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    True, that SPIRIT, the Miltha, is a FORM of god, but not God himself. What did the DOVE bring?

    Acts 10:38. Notice the word POWER. The Miltha was given the fullness of his creator. Col 1.
    Then Jesus wasn't a servant. He was only in the form of a servant. He only came like a man (but wasn't one). Taking that approach makes the passage into nonsense.
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    There is only one God and He is the Father.

    Jesus is exactly like the Father.

    In fact, when a person receives the Holy Spirit they receive the Father and Jesus, yet only one Spirit.

    They are one and one means 'the same'.
    Then rewrite the Bible and take out references to the Son and the Holy Spirit.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    TOL Legend keypurr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Ah Keypurr, What are we to do with you? John 1:1, 14 directly state that Jesus is God1
    I looked again and I did not see the name Jesus. Where is his name or are you just assuming?
    Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

    I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings betsy123 (and Greetings again Bright Raven), The following is a repeat of my post #18 which was in answer to Bright Raven. I am not sure if Bright Raven read this as he may have been busy, but I repeat it here in response to your post:
    Different to many non-Trinitarians I do not believe that it is speaking of Jesus in John 1:1, but that “the Word” is a personification similar to the Wise Woman “Wisdom” in Proverbs 8. Jesus is revealed in John 1:14 and this is not speaking of his physical glory, but his moral glory, he was full of grace and truth.

    John 1

    The Word Became Flesh

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 He was with God in the beginning.
    3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.


    Please take note that the heading for John 1 is, "The Word Became Flesh."

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    TOL Legend keypurr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    Then Jesus wasn't a servant. He was only in the form of a servant. He only came like a man (but wasn't one). Taking that approach makes the passage into nonsense.
    The Miltha was and is a servant of his God. Now tell me what came with the dove? Why did God declare that this was his son after the dove came? The Miltha is the son that God sent, Jesus is the son that was born.
    Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

    I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    I looked again and I did not see the name Jesus. Where is his name or are you just assuming?
    The Scripture says the Word became flesh. If flesh, whom Keypurr? Don't keep me in suspense. Who is this Word that became flesh. I'll give you a hint. He is the one who came unto His own like you and was not recognized by them.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    TOL Legend keypurr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by betsy123 View Post
    Who do you think John 1 is talking about?
    i do not see the name Jesus in John 1, show me where you do.
    Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

    I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

  12. #69
    TOL Legend keypurr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    The Scripture says the Word became flesh. If flesh, whom Keypurr? Don't keep me in suspense. Who is this Word that became flesh. I'll give you a hint. He is the one who came unto His own like you and was not recognized by them.
    Do some research on the express image of God like I have telling you for six plus years. God is a spirit, not a man. The Miltha is a spirit of God, first of all creations.
    Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

    I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

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    TOL Legend keypurr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    The Scripture says the Word became flesh. If flesh, whom Keypurr? Don't keep me in suspense. Who is this Word that became flesh. I'll give you a hint. He is the one who came unto His own like you and was not recognized by them.
    You only prove my point BR. See Hebrews 10:5, who or what needed a body prepared for it?
    Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

    I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    Do some research on the express image of God like I have telling you for six plus years. God is a spirit, not a man. The Miltha is a spirit of God, first of all creations.
    You still have evaded the question! Who is the Word! I and others need to know.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    I looked again and I did not see the name Jesus. Where is his name or are you just assuming?
    Read Genesis 1: 1-3, and John 1: 1-3. Backtrack and read my post connecting the two.

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    keypurr,

    Do you accept the book of John?

    Shalom.

    Jacob

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    Over 2000 post club nikolai_42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    The Miltha was and is a servant of his God. Now tell me what came with the dove? Why did God declare that this was his son after the dove came? The Miltha is the son that God sent, Jesus is the son that was born.
    You're being inconsistent. You said that Jesus was only in the form of God - but not God. Therefore, if you are going to read this consistently, you have to say that Jesus was only in the form of a servant (not actually a servant). But you have said He was indeed a servant. He was in the form of God and came in the form of a servant in the likeness and fashion of a man :

    Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    Philippians 2:5-8

    He had the form of God and took on the form of a servant. If one is a likeness only, so is the other. The comparison is being made to show Christ's humility for having one thing and taking on a lower thing. Those two things (form of God and form of a servant in the likeness of man) are comparable since one is a step or two down from the other. Therefore, to say Christ was only in the form of God but not God is to make the comparison as though it is between apples and oranges.

    And as I said in an earlier post, equality with God was what He claimed - and you can't be equal with God yet not God. So saying He was only in the form of God yet not God is to confuse the categories.
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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  20. #75
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    Greetings again Bright Raven and betsy123,
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    The NIV states that the Word became flesh. If the Word became flesh, that flesh became someone. The question is whom? The Spurgeon Study Bible says: "We cannot describe the deity of Christ in clearer language than John uses. He was with God. He was God. He did the works of god for He was the Creator. If any doubt His deity, they must do so in the distinct defiance of the language of Holy Scripture".
    Quote Originally Posted by betsy123 View Post
    John 1The Word Became Flesh
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 He was with God in the beginning.
    3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

    Please take note that the heading for John 1 is, "The Word Became Flesh."
    Yes, the Word became flesh John 1:14, as Jesus was the “only begotten of the Father”, not Deity God the Son plus flesh. Jesus was a man, not a Deity. The way the Word became flesh is revealed in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 where it reveals that God the Father was the father of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit and Mary was his mother. It does not say that God the Son was shrunk into the womb of Mary. The Word in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the wise woman "Wisdom" in Proverbs 8:27 who was with God in the creation.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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