User Tag List

Page 6 of 17 FirstFirst ... 345678916 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 250

Thread: Do you believe in predestination ?

  1. #76
    Toxic Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    19,498
    Thanks
    592
    Thanked 13,636 Times in 9,457 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    39 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147858
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    OK I'm going to review it.

    Here is my now revised take on your thought experiment, correcting for a possible petitio principii in my prior:
    A possesses the power to exhaustively control B's circumstances.
    A reserves their power to do so.
    A informs B what B will freely choose to do, within a specific circumstance that A arranges.
    Does B have a choice?
    Yes.
    Does that mean it is possible that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge?
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Stripe For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (July 18th, 2019)

  3. #77
    Over 2000 post club Idolater's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Mass
    Posts
    2,260
    Thanks
    256
    Thanked 471 Times in 394 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    44899
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Its good to pause and take stock. Most of this is unrelated to our thread so pick and choose what you want to address and ignore the rest. We need to get back to the topic. -Lon
    Part of my point is that we never diverged from the topic. If predestination is true, then nothing is off this topic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    You wouldn't be a good Catholic if you didn't.
    That's not true. There are tons of good Catholics who wouldn't say such a thing. What makes a good Catholic, in descending order of importance, is faith in Christ, being initiated into the Catholic Church, and then being in full communion with the Church---iow being validly authorized to receive the Eucharist, and actually doing so at least once per year.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    For me: The RC, like many other 'works-oriented' denominations
    False that Catholicism is what you mean by 'works-oriented,' and manifestly so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    , has the cart before the horse. Very few Catholics agree that you must be a new creation, THEN works.
    It isn't the conduct of Catholics but the authoritatively authentic Catholic teachings on faith and morals that you should concern yourself with when considering Catholicism, especially as a theologically minded Protestant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    They don't essentially believe in a supernatural rebirth.
    Study the teachings on baptism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    It is a huge difference and that wall is high.
    There is no difference. It might look different to you, but the teaching /doctrine is there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I'll be as frank as you: I could not be a Catholic where rulers instead of Savior are employed to cause church members to tote the line.
    I don't know what you mean by this. Catholicism believes what the Apostles taught in all matters of faith and morals. There isn't a more Christian way to do it. I'm not saying that Protestants don't also heed and obey what they understand the Apostles to have taught in these matters, but it remains true that Catholicism does devote itself to the Apostolic witness and all of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    The Lord Jesus Christ said new wine could not be put into old wine-skins.
    My understanding of this reference, doesn't apply to this topic, can you elaborate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Essentially, we aren't going to meet in the middle on this.
    There is no middle. There's the Lord's Church, and then there's the world. What could possibly be the middle? It's like a lightswitch, on or off. Up or down. No middle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    A bit off the beaten path, this thread is about predestination and whether God knew us before the foundation of the world, and whether our names were previously written in the Lamb's book of Life. In some sense, the severity of our difference, may impact this discussion.
    The N.T. itself teaches about our difference, between Catholics in full communion, and authentic Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church. Corporeally, we are totally distinct and separate, even though eternally we are siblings. The N.T. authorizes Catholics to treat you Protestants just like everybody else in the world who isn't Catholic; like a heathen man and a publican. What this means today is that you are not authorized to validly celebrate the Eucharist, or to receive Holy Communion. Because of this, you are not in physical communion with the Lord's Church; and by physical communion I am alluding to all Catholic parishes partaking of "one" bread (1Co10:17KJV). That's the Eucharist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Scripture verse(s)?
    Be in the world but not of the world, and other verses distinguishing the Church from everybody else. This distinction is mentioned more frequently than the distinction between Christians in full communion with each other, and Christians who are outside the fold in one way or another. Although both distinctions are in the N.T.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    No.
    "No," what? No you don't have two examples of what you're talking about?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Protestants would hold to about 90-95% of the RC's doctrine. Where do we differ? Mariology for one.
    I have to guess that you mean by 'mariology,' calling her "Mother of God," and that we believe that she (and all other saints in heaven right now) can hear our prayers? Perhaps additionally that we believe that saints in heaven right now can pray on our behalf? I can only guess, without some blank-filling-in on your part.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Salvation by Grace for another.
    Catholicism believes in eternal and temporal salvation by grace alone. Catholicism does not discount the value of petitioning for grace either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I know.


    Sure, but I believe the gifts and office of Apostle is over.
    As does Catholicism. The difference between Catholicism and non-Catholicism is the idea that the office of a bishop has also ceased, along with "the gifts and office of Apostle." There isn't any scriptural reason to believe in the cessation of the office of a bishop (1Ti3:1KJV).
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    That is why the next two will rather be 'witnesses.'
    The "next two" what? And the Apostles first and foremost Were witnesses, to the Resurrection of Christ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    While Protestants and Catholics agree on much, these 10% or so, are significantly huge chasms.
    The single issue is bishops. Every other difference in belief precipitates from a difference in Catholicism's and non-Catholic understanding of bishops.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Such does affect predestination discussion to some degree...
    There are ways in which scriptures concerning the predestination of the Catholic Church should be understood to include also those authentic Christians who neglect to hear the Church, e.g. (Mt18:17KJV).
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Yes, very aware of this fact and others.
    These other bishops as a tradition broke with Rome about a thousand years ago, over whether it is Apostolic that the Spirit proceeds from the Son, or if He only proceeds from the Father. Catholics believe that the Apostolic tradition in Rome is the gold standard, and that if any other Apostolic traditions differ from the Roman one, that Rome is authentic. This comes from that both Peter and Paul, two of the biggest three Apostles (John being the third), were residents of Rome during the end of each of their lives. So the Roman pastorate receives her Apostolic tradition from Peter and Paul both, and other bishops receive their Apostolic traditions from other Apostles. All authentic Apostolic tradition is equal, but if there is a difference between one tradition and another, then Rome's tradition is taken as superior, because Rome's authentic Apostolic oral tradition originates with both Peter and with Paul.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    In addition to those already mentioned (Mariology, Seat of Peter...) I don't hold to 'church' as an organization or institution. It is simply an invisible body of all who are 'new creations' supernaturally made into new beings.
    But you do know that the Church was both, historically. Perhaps you find Constantine to be an inflection point in Church history like many Protestants do---before Diocletian, the Church was "an organization or institution." It was "an organization or institution" immediately following the Apostolic era, and it was "an organization or institution" during the Apostolic era as well. The Church was always "an organization or institution" at the latest, from the beginning of the office of a bishop (1Ti3:1KJV again). Bishops' existence ipso facto creates "an organization or institution," because bishops are hierarchical in one sense: bishops are authentic Church pastors. So by virtue of there being such a thing as an authentic pastorate, there also must be "an organization or institution" that corresponds to this hierarchical office.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    These need encouragement, but their new-nature desires godliness.
    Sheep outside their fold need to return to their fold, or, enter into it for the first time, and those sheep who do desire to enter their fold, also desire godliness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    No nuns ruler nor priests confessional can make an unbeliever who has no spiritual generation, believe, follow, or please Christ.
    Right, and Catholicism also teaches this same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Because Catholics don't see man born spiritually dead, as I believe wholeheartedly the scriptures proclaim, there is a deep-seated disagreement. Though perhaps only 10%, that which is disagreed upon, is huge.
    Catholicism believes the whole Scripture, and one of the things that the scriptures very clearly do proclaim is that Christians should come to the Church, and be in full communion with one another, to be both spiritually and physically, invisibly and visibly, united as One Body (1Co10:17KJV again).
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Yes, I know. Again, as far as most of us Protestants are concerned, it is all cart before the horse. Bandaids on gashes. New wine in old wineskins.
    Being in full communion with the Lord Jesus's Church is none of those things. You non-Catholics are the only ones trying to tow a cart from behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Back to Predestination discussion -Lon
    We never left the topic. We are predestined to discuss this.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  4. #78
    Over 2000 post club Idolater's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Mass
    Posts
    2,260
    Thanks
    256
    Thanked 471 Times in 394 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    44899
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Does that mean it is possible that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge?
    I guess I don't know what you mean by asking if "it is possible" that He does not have it, since the fact is either that He does, or that He does not. I don't think that your thought experiment rules out that He has it.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  5. #79
    Toxic Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    19,498
    Thanks
    592
    Thanked 13,636 Times in 9,457 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    39 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147858
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I guess I don't know what you mean by asking if "it is possible" that He does not have it, since the fact is either that He does, or that He does not. I don't think that your thought experiment rules out that He has it.
    You say that He does have exhaustive foreknowledge. My thought experiment presents a scenario where He could be shown not to have it.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Stripe For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (July 19th, 2019)

  7. #80
    Over 2000 post club Idolater's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Mass
    Posts
    2,260
    Thanks
    256
    Thanked 471 Times in 394 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    44899
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    You say that He does have exhaustive foreknowledge.
    I do, for the reason I gave.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    My thought experiment presents a scenario where He could be shown not to have it.
    Then do it. Show it.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  8. #81
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    9,967
    Thanks
    2,823
    Thanked 4,865 Times in 2,923 Posts

    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147740
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Part of my point is that we never diverged from the topic. If predestination is true, then nothing is off this topic.
    I disagree: This discussion is Catholic/Protestant and not predestination at this venture:
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    That's not true. There are tons of good Catholics who wouldn't say such a thing. What makes a good Catholic, in descending order of importance, is faith in Christ, being initiated into the Catholic Church, and then being in full communion with the Church---iow being validly authorized to receive the Eucharist, and actually doing so at least once per year.
    False that Catholicism is what you mean by 'works-oriented,' and manifestly so.
    It isn't the conduct of Catholics but the authoritatively authentic Catholic teachings on faith and morals that you should concern yourself with when considering Catholicism, especially as a theologically minded Protestant.
    Study the teachings on baptism.
    There is no difference. It might look different to you, but the teaching /doctrine is there.
    I don't know what you mean by this. Catholicism believes what the Apostles taught in all matters of faith and morals. There isn't a more Christian way to do it. I'm not saying that Protestants don't also heed and obey what they understand the Apostles to have taught in these matters, but it remains true that Catholicism does devote itself to the Apostolic witness and all of it.
    Half my extended family is Catholic, including a great uncle who is a priest. There is no point of me saying 'yes it is' and you saying 'no it is not.' Its pointless.


    My understanding of this reference, doesn't apply to this topic, can you elaborate?There is no middle. There's the Lord's Church, and then there's the world. What could possibly be the middle? It's like a lightswitch, on or off. Up or down. No middle.
    You must have misread. I said there was no meeting in the middle. You are just elaborating like we don't agree on this, but I said it first. Glad we both agree there is no meeting of ways between our churches here. That's what I said. What's odd is you've tried to say no to genuine differences between Protestant and Catholic denominations as if there was a meeting in the middle I'm trying to tell you what they are.

    The N.T. itself teaches about our difference, between Catholics in full communion, and authentic Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church. Corporeally, we are totally distinct and separate, even though eternally we are siblings. The N.T. authorizes Catholics to treat you Protestants just like everybody else in the world who isn't Catholic; like a heathen man and a publican. What this means today is that you are not authorized to validly celebrate the Eucharist, or to receive Holy Communion. Because of this, you are not in physical communion with the Lord's Church; and by physical communion I am alluding to all Catholic parishes partaking of "one" bread (1Co10:17KJV). That's the Eucharist.
    Be in the world but not of the world, and other verses distinguishing the Church from everybody else. This distinction is mentioned more frequently than the distinction between Christians in full communion with each other, and Christians who are outside the fold in one way or another. Although both distinctions are in the N.T.
    And Protestants do the same regarding Catholics. We have a good number of exCatholics on TOL (including the site owner).


    "No," what? No you don't have two examples of what you're talking about?
    I have to guess that you mean by 'mariology,' calling her "Mother of God," and that we believe that she (and all other saints in heaven right now) can hear our prayers? Perhaps additionally that we believe that saints in heaven right now can pray on our behalf? I can only guess, without some blank-filling-in on your part.
    Catholicism believes in eternal and temporal salvation by grace alone. Catholicism does not discount the value of petitioning for grace either.
    As does Catholicism. The difference between Catholicism and non-Catholicism is the idea that the office of a bishop has also ceased, along with "the gifts and office of Apostle." There isn't any scriptural reason to believe in the cessation of the office of a bishop (1Ti3:1KJV).
    The "next two" what? And the Apostles first and foremost Were witnesses, to the Resurrection of Christ.
    The single issue is bishops. Every other difference in belief precipitates from a difference in Catholicism's and non-Catholic understanding of bishops.
    I disagree (I too am exCatholic) but it doesn't matter for this thread. We can pick it up where it isn't misplaced discussion in another thread one day, perhaps.

    There are ways in which scriptures concerning the predestination of the Catholic Church should be understood to include also those authentic Christians who neglect to hear the Church, e.g. (Mt18:17KJV).
    These other bishops as a tradition broke with Rome about a thousand years ago, over whether it is Apostolic that the Spirit proceeds from the Son, or if He only proceeds from the Father. Catholics believe that the Apostolic tradition in Rome is the gold standard, and that if any other Apostolic traditions differ from the Roman one, that Rome is authentic. This comes from that both Peter and Paul, two of the biggest three Apostles (John being the third), were residents of Rome during the end of each of their lives. So the Roman pastorate receives her Apostolic tradition from Peter and Paul both, and other bishops receive their Apostolic traditions from other Apostles. All authentic Apostolic tradition is equal, but if there is a difference between one tradition and another, then Rome's tradition is taken as superior, because Rome's authentic Apostolic oral tradition originates with both Peter and with Paul.
    Still not really addressing the topic of predestination that the OP is concerned with....
    But you do know that the Church was both, historically. Perhaps you find Constantine to be an inflection point in Church history like many Protestants do---before Diocletian, the Church was "an organization or institution." It was "an organization or institution" immediately following the Apostolic era, and it was "an organization or institution" during the Apostolic era as well. The Church was always "an organization or institution" at the latest, from the beginning of the office of a bishop (1Ti3:1KJV again). Bishops' existence ipso facto creates "an organization or institution," because bishops are hierarchical in one sense: bishops are authentic Church pastors. So by virtue of there being such a thing as an authentic pastorate, there also must be "an organization or institution" that corresponds to this hierarchical office.
    Sheep outside their fold need to return to their fold, or, enter into it for the first time, and those sheep who do desire to enter their fold, also desire godliness.
    Even in the two Vaticans, but there has always been coexisting churches, including Eastern Orthodox, but even prior, many Eastern churches as well, never capable of being in fellowship.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Right, and Catholicism also teaches this same thing.
    Catholicism believes the whole Scripture, and one of the things that the scriptures very clearly do proclaim is that Christians should come to the Church, and be in full communion with one another, to be both spiritually and physically, invisibly and visibly, united as One Body (1Co10:17KJV again).
    Being in full communion with the Lord Jesus's Church is none of those things. You non-Catholics are the only ones trying to tow a cart from behind.
    We never left the topic. We are predestined to discuss this.
    No, not really part of the thread's intent, we are off-topic. We can discuss these differences some other time. -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  9. #82
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    9,967
    Thanks
    2,823
    Thanked 4,865 Times in 2,923 Posts

    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147740
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    I see this as another example of a logically impossible challenge. God can't create a square circle, it would be absurd to insist that He could. Likewise, He could not predict what someone will do, tell them and be shown right every time.
    As I said previously, 'awareness' is the mark of divinity, not 'freewill.' We were more Godly when sin wasn't the choice because that choice caused what we know as freewill today (a will to do otherwise). Because I believe 'freewill' is naught but 'sin-will' it cannot be a gift. We are in a state of faux-independence (more so with American independents), we value, but do not recognize the problem of this 'free to do as we will.' It is true, this is the way we are born, but Colossians 1:15-17 tells us we really aren't 'independent.' John 15:5 says the same. What we are, is in trouble and this is the gospel message. All have sinned and fall short. Romans 3:23 The wages of sin is death. Romans 5:8 The gift of God is Jesus Christ Romans 6:23

    Freewill then, doesn't matter, in fact, freewill has to be negated. We become 'Christ-willed' rather than "Freewilled." In a sense, I agree with you and all freewill people, that freewill has to exist or men could not be condemned, but I'm saying that it matters only for those perishing. For we who believe, we have no free-will, but His alone. In this sense, those in Christ are 'free' in will from sin, and those without Him are 'free' from God's demands. Does God know it all? Yes. Does it affect either of these two will? No, because both are controlled though they may 'think' they are free. It just isn't true. Matthew 6:24 We are simply free at one point from God, and free at another point from sin.

    Awareness is an appreciation, an ability to grasp the goodness of God and His love. It doesn't require anything, just an awareness. You might add 'acceptance' but without God actually making us new creations, it isn't something we can have until then. I realize this is a whole package (why I'm reckoned a Calvinist).
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  10. #83
    Toxic Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    19,498
    Thanks
    592
    Thanked 13,636 Times in 9,457 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    39 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147858
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Show it.
    It's an (informal) proof by contradiction. If God knows all, He could tell me what I will choose between A and B. He tells me A, but I could still choose B.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Stripe For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (July 19th, 2019)

  12. #84
    Over 750 post club ttruscott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    809
    Thanks
    130
    Thanked 54 Times in 46 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    24335
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    You and I, in Christ, are brothers - No choice. Further? We don't care. That choice was made for us and we couldn't be happier. It is a relationship fully out of both of our choices. We can argue it is a consequence but consequences aren't the choice, they are all the results of. Long ago, the Lord Jesus Christ purposed to save us.
    You may not feel a need to care but those who Christ did NOT purpose to save probably feel differently about this...

    ...or rather I feel a need to exonerate HIM from the implication of unconditional election which implies unconditional non-election, ie sending innocents to hell by bypassing them for election unconditionally...
    Last edited by ttruscott; July 21st, 2019 at 08:47 PM.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  13. #85
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    9,967
    Thanks
    2,823
    Thanked 4,865 Times in 2,923 Posts

    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147740
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post


    You may not feel a need to care but those who Christ did NOT purpose to save probably feel differently about this...

    Matthew 13:15 Romans 10:13-16 "The people have seen a great light and the darkness has not comprehended it."

    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    ...or rather I feel a need to exonerate HIM for sending innocents

    Romans 3:10,11,23

    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    to hell by bypassing them for election unconditionally...
    Job 13:8 Romans 9:16

    With both verses (and chapters) I tremble.

    Job 38:1-4

    Job 40:1-8

    How may you or I contend with the Almighty?
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Lon For Your Post:

    Nang (July 21st, 2019)

  15. #86
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    9,967
    Thanks
    2,823
    Thanked 4,865 Times in 2,923 Posts

    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147740
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    It's an (informal) proof by contradiction. If God knows all, He could tell me what I will choose between A and B. He tells me A, but I could still choose B.
    I'm not sure what he's asking. It seems like anybody could come up with a scenario where God is not omniscient. Perhaps he means show it from scripture?
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  16. #87
    Over 750 post club ttruscott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    809
    Thanks
    130
    Thanked 54 Times in 46 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    24335
    Mans religion teaches contrary to scripture, that Gods predestination is premised on Gods foresight of mans doing something, his works or believing etc, but its not true. Gods predestination is conditioned upon the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1: 11
    What purpose did HE have that condemned so many to hell for no condition at all against the scripture 2 Peter 3:9 Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. and 1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. ​Doesn't sound to me like HE purposed them to suffer eternal death in hell so why pass them over for election???

    You got another practiced deke by rote to trot out for us??
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  17. #88
    Over 750 post club ttruscott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    809
    Thanks
    130
    Thanked 54 Times in 46 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    24335
    Originally Posted by Stripe
    It's an (informal) proof by contradiction. If God knows all, He could tell me what I will choose between A and B. He tells me A, but I could still choose B.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I'm not sure what he's asking. It seems like anybody could come up with a scenario where God is not omniscient. Perhaps he means show it from scripture?
    Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Works is commonly taken to refer to HIS creative decrees, which implies that if HE did not create something by a work of creation then HE would not know it, that is, if HE did not create the results of our free will decisions then HE would not know them until we created them and made them real.

    This verse also says that HE know all things from the beginning of the world, NOT eternity past.

    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  18. #89
    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    8,021
    Thanks
    1,270
    Thanked 2,300 Times in 1,656 Posts

    Mentioned
    41 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    279543
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post


    You may not feel a need to care but those who Christ did NOT purpose to save probably feel differently about this...

    ...or rather I feel a need to exonerate HIM from the implication of unconditional election which implies unconditional non-election, ie sending innocents to hell by bypassing them for election unconditionally...
    No “innocents” will be sent to hell, for there is no such thing as an “innocent.”

    God’s grace overcomes and conquers the reality of universal sin and the total depravity of all mankind. Romans 3:19

    Not a single living soul has ever deserved God’s mercy or saving grace.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

  19. #90
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    9,967
    Thanks
    2,823
    Thanked 4,865 Times in 2,923 Posts

    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147740
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. which implies that if HE did not create it by a work of creation the HE would not know it, that is, if HE did not create the results of our free will decisions then HE would not know them until we created them and made them real.

    This verse also says that HE know all things from the beginning of the world, NOT eternity past.

    If your only contention with predestination is what 'you' think He can and cannot do, then your theology is based off of your sensibilities rather than truth. I came at this from a whole 'nother direction: Read what it says, believe it, and realize I'm not the person, as intelligent as I may or not be, to tell God 1) what He must know, or 2) why He can't know that. Open Theism 'seems' like dictation to me with God as the secretary. Rather, what does scripture say?

    John 21:17 Simple question: true or false???

    John 16:30 Same: true or false?

    Another question:

    John 21:18 John 13:38 How did the Lord Jesus Christ know?

    Then the same question: He did know, true or false?

    Yet another question:

    Isaiah 40:13-14 What does it strongly imply? Can it possibly be anything else?

    Hebrews 4:12-13 How much is 'clearly laid bare' before the Lord? How much?

    Where do or can we go from here? We only need read and agree upon scriptures? What do these 'clearly' say?

    In Him -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us