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Thread: Do you believe in predestination ?

  1. #91
    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    A god that fails to possess the attributes of omniscience and sovereign omnibenevolence, is not the Creator God.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    Acts 15:18 which implies that if HE did not create something by a work of creation then HE would not know it

    Does it? Does it really imply that? It doesn't imply at all that this is the 'extent' of His knowledge. Further? It would also 'imply' that God knows all 'from the beginning.' It isn't enough just to get 'implications.'
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    A god that fails to possess the attributes of omniscience and sovereign omnibenevolence, is not the Creator God.
    Does this include the practice of "Open Theism" which teaches that God is only partially omniscient?
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Toxic Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    If HE did not create the results of our free will decisions then HE would not know them until we created them and made them real.
    If He "created the results," we do not have a will.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Toxic Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Partially omniscient.
    That's a bit of an oxy moron.

    An open theist would say that the future is not set in stone; God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    JudgeRightly (July 22nd, 2019)

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    That's a bit of an oxy moron.

    An open theist would say that the future is not set in stone; God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge.
    Then He is not totally omniscient.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    ttruscott (July 22nd, 2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    No “innocents” will be sent to hell, for there is no such thing as an “innocent.”
    Not on earth in mankind, you are right ...

    but I am talking about BEFORE the foundation of the world when we were elected or not elected, before all sin, everyone was innocent (since it is rejected that GOD looked forward to see who would put their faith in HIM) and the doctrine of unconditional election necessitates an UNconditional non-election of some of these innocents, that is, innocents being passed over for election for no reason, innocents in the end being condemned to hell for no reason.
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    If your only contention with predestination is what 'you' think He can and cannot do, then your theology is based off of your sensibilities rather than truth.
    If my contentions are only that then so are your contentions. Prove your ideas about the meaning of any verse is absolute truth! You can't or all would have to accept that proof for that is what proof means...it can't be denied. That is why I live by faith, not proof.
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    A god that fails to possess the attributes of omniscience and sovereign omnibenevolence, is not the Creator God.
    Okaaaaay, but who gets to define HIS omniscience, the pagan Greeks who taught us that He knows all that can be known from eternity past to eternity future which implies HE knew before their creation who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY! ...a blasphemy against HIS nature of being lovingly righteous and just that the Church happily ignores because the definition is oh so holy...

    ...even though it is not supported by the only verse which states clearly HE Know all HIS works for the beginning of the world.

    Obviously there are counter arguments against any interpretation of any verse but surely the one which removes any hint of the stink of blasphemy from our doctrine is to be preferred?
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  15. #100
    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    It doesn't imply at all that this is the 'extent' of His knowledge.
    This is true but since the beginning of the world, HE knows all HIS works, all that HE creates. Why say this if it is meaningless?
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  16. #101
    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Does this include the practice of "Open Theism" which teaches that God is only partially omniscient?
    Yes.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    Not on earth in mankind, you are right ...

    but I am talking about BEFORE the foundation of the world when we were elected or not elected,
    I know of no scripture that teaches this. The elect of God were foreknown by God in Christ & chosen to be saved on that basis alone. I Peter 1:2

    before all sin, everyone was innocent (since it is rejected that GOD looked forward to see who would put their faith in HIM) and the doctrine of unconditional election necessitates an UNconditional non-election of some of these innocents, that is, innocents being passed over for election for no reason, innocents in the end being condemned to hell for no reason.
    There were only two innocents created (before the birth of Jesus Christ). Adam & Eve federally represented the entire human race & they are the cause of all loss of innocence in mankind since their fall.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

  18. #103
    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    Okaaaaay, but who gets to define HIS omniscience, the pagan Greeks who taught us that He knows all that can be known from eternity past to eternity future which implies HE knew before their creation who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY! ...a blasphemy against HIS nature of being lovingly righteous and just that the Church happily ignores because the definition is oh so holy...

    ...even though it is not supported by the only verse which states clearly HE Know all HIS works for the beginning of the world.

    Obviously there are counter arguments against any interpretation of any verse but surely the one which removes any hint of the stink of blasphemy from our doctrine is to be preferred?
    God defines His own attributes as revealed in the Holy Scriptures alone, and Scripture interprets Scripture alone.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

  19. #104
    Toxic Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Then He is not totally omniscient.
    Or else total knowledge of the choices men will make is a logical absurdity.

    Does God know what the weather on Vulcan is?
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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  21. #105
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    If He "created the results," we do not have a will.
    Depends how you define. There is no such thing as a completely unrestricted will. You know this as well. You rather mean 'somewhat' able to choose. You cannot flap your arms and fly (barring doing something weird while entering an airplane or helicopter). Your will is thus, not free, just somewhat able to make a choice. Again, freewill is not our 'identity.' 'Awareness' is identity and doesn't require you or I to choose.

    Take for example my kids. Not one of them had a choice for parents. None of them. It does nothing at all to our relationship and in fact, makes it more meaningful and incredible.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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