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Thread: Do you believe in predestination ?

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    No. Just continuing to disagree with your interpretation of scripture. I do not accept the MAD theology as valid.
    This had nothing to with "MAD theology", but bashers gotta bash.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Predestination is part of the gospel.
    God predestined our response to Him before the beginning of time writing our
    names in the Lambs book of Life.

    It is not to say we did not chose along the way, but without Him choosing us
    we would never be able to have sight to have even the ability to choose anything else.

    It is a wonder that any person has more than a glimpse of Gods love and grace, because
    we are so lost in our own world of self justification and defence of our interests.

    Does free will determine sinful behaviour, ie without the ability to sin, then free
    will would not be free will, and allowing this door to be open, then does this invalidate
    predestination?

    I think of a farmer planting seed. Some will always fail, but this failure is far outwieghed
    by the successes to make the whole thing worthwhile. And if you remove the element of choice
    and random chance, you create robots who can only do what they are told to do, which is not
    a Kingdom based on love and choice. God bless you

  3. #243
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by followHim View Post
    And if you remove the element of choice
    and random chance, you create robots who can only do what they are told to do, which is not
    a Kingdom based on love and choice. God bless you
    The rest I agreed with save this. Choice is not the defining point of man. Values are. As such, it isn't so much 'choosing' between two values, as simply embracing. The scriptures constantly talk, not of free will (you'll never find it in scripture) but in following one of two Masters. We are creatures made for dependence, not independence. John 15:5

    Robots doing what they were made to do are not meaningless, but are created for specific purposes set by the Creator. An 'ability to reject God' is a poor definition and that's the bottom-line of freewill choice. Think about it, it is the ONLY thing God didn't put there in the first place. If we are robots, we are self-aware robots who find value and meaning in what God finds valuable and meaningful. It is fulfilling that predesigned role and Christ-likeness that gives us meaning. The only thing a Christian values in me is my Christ-likeness. Whatever else against Christ is not valued at all, therefore it is the 'robot' analogy that looks like Christ, emulating Christ, that one is arguing against. It makes no sense. We aren't cookie cutters, to some He gave teacher, others the gift of giving 1 Corinthians 12, 13, 14

    "If" I or my theology is to be compared to a programmed robot, it is the best kind of robot and not at all to be shunned or avoid because it is Christ-likeness. In Him -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    The rest I agreed with save this. Choice is not the defining point of man. Values are. As such, it isn't so much 'choosing' between two values, as simply embracing. The scriptures constantly talk, not of free will (you'll never find it in scripture) but in following one of two Masters. We are creatures made for dependence, not independence. John 15:5

    Robots doing what they were made to do are not meaningless, but are created for specific purposes set by the Creator. An 'ability to reject God' is a poor definition and that's the bottom-line of freewill choice. Think about it, it is the ONLY thing God didn't put there in the first place. If we are robots, we are self-aware robots who find value and meaning in what God finds valuable and meaningful. It is fulfilling that predesigned role and Christ-likeness that gives us meaning. The only thing a Christian values in me is my Christ-likeness. Whatever else against Christ is not valued at all, therefore it is the 'robot' analogy that looks like Christ, emulating Christ, that one is arguing against. It makes no sense. We aren't cookie cutters, to some He gave teacher, others the gift of giving 1 Corinthians 12, 13, 14

    "If" I or my theology is to be compared to a programmed robot, it is the best kind of robot and not at all to be shunned or avoid because it is Christ-likeness. In Him -Lon
    You many not be aware but the subject of free will is a moral, philosophical and social issue
    reaching to the penal justice system, and the right of a society to imprison people and even
    execute them.

    In one corner there are determinists where everything is dictated by environment and our systems
    of choice within us. On the other side are free will advocates which propose man can choose, and
    even change the basis of this choice at will.

    When talking free-will it is only the choice between x number of alternatives.
    Biologically providing any creature with the ability to choose eliminates the need to predict
    situations but provides a mechanism for adapting and ultimately conquering environments.

    The problem faced by Adam and Eve was taking on the knowledge of good and evil without communion
    with God, means we will always gravitate towards selfishness and our benefit as ultimately there
    are no other reference points. God declared when Adam and Eve gained knowledge they were like Him.
    So it having knowledge of morality is a God like attribute, then if man does not have the ability
    to choose, why would this be corrupting and why is man guilty of sin?

    Gods argument with us and calling is for us to love Him because of who He is. There is no programming
    there is always continual choice. It is this choice that defines our citizenship, the confidence Christ
    has in us to call us worthy of His Name.

    Even Jesus had a choice. He expressed it thus

    39 "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will"
    Matt 26

    For me within my free will, the truth drives me on to Christ because of who He is.
    I do not have a choice as everything within me calls out that He is the Lord of All.
    God bless you

  5. #245
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by followHim View Post
    You many not be aware but the subject of free will is a moral, philosophical and social issue
    reaching to the penal justice system, and the right of a society to imprison people and even
    execute them.
    Yes. I was aware.

    Quote Originally Posted by followHim View Post
    In one corner there are determinists where everything is dictated by environment and our systems
    of choice within us.
    Understood: Pavlov, BF Skinner, etc. - Operant Conditioning

    Quote Originally Posted by followHim View Post
    On the other side are free will advocates which propose man can choose, and
    even change the basis of this choice at will.
    The difference is whether external forces shape your life in a predictable duplicate-able manner, or whether you have internal qualities that allow you to bypass external stimuli. Such is given under 'classic conditioning' under Pavlov etc. but the difference is how predictable we become. Skinner believed man was invariably predictable given outside stimuli. That too, is why we classify 'mass' behavior and thinking (often associated with lemming behavior).

    Quote Originally Posted by followHim View Post
    When talking free-will it is only the choice between x number of alternatives.
    Biologically providing any creature with the ability to choose eliminates the need to predict
    situations but provides a mechanism for adapting and ultimately conquering environments.
    Its an age-old debate. What makes the difference in temptation and resistance is Christ. Prior? You will do whatever your made-nature desires. You are in a vehicle of human-flesh and it'll go to the hospital whether you give consent or not because of outside stimuli beyond your control.
    I do not argue we have no internal motivators, but rather concede that they are shaped predictably by outside influences.

    Quote Originally Posted by followHim View Post
    The problem faced by Adam and Eve was taking on the knowledge of good and evil without communion
    with God, means we will always gravitate towards selfishness and our benefit as ultimately there
    are no other reference points. God declared when Adam and Eve gained knowledge they were like Him.
    So it having knowledge of morality is a God like attribute, then if man does not have the ability
    to choose, why would this be corrupting and why is man guilty of sin?
    Again, this is agreed upon. My stance and statement is, sin caused this condition, not God.
    So, I don't argue we don't have it, but that we were not originally supposed to have it. Eating the tree was forbidden, not a gift.

    Quote Originally Posted by followHim View Post
    Gods argument with us and calling is for us to love Him because of who He is. There is no programming
    there is always continual choice. It is this choice that defines our citizenship, the confidence Christ
    has in us to call us worthy of His Name.
    A couple of points where we agree and disagree:
    1) Yes God worked against our condition which involves this will that desires 'other than Him' when enacting the process of Salvation.
    2) I disagree He defers to it, and 3) that choice is an act of love on our parts. It is too much 'me' for it to be truly loving when coming to Christ.
    4) God does use all things to work together for good, which does include the poor choices and character of sin in our lives.
    5) Not in deference to freewill, but largely to deliver us 'from' it.
    Quote Originally Posted by followHim View Post
    Even Jesus had a choice. He expressed it thus

    39 "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will"
    Matt 26
    Did He? "Free" will would suggest He could have done either without consequence. I don't believe that could have been the case, thus without an actual choice, given His nature = No choice. His very nature was to do the will of the Father because He was one with Him. Whatever we see in the Garden, we have to ensure we are reading the context correctly and for me, the danger is either or both of us can draw false conclusions readily. Instead, I do pull that taking on your and my sin was extremely difficult and it reminds me how terrible even some of my 'lesser' evils were for Him. The topic of the Son's will vs. the Father's is more difficult theologically.

    Quote Originally Posted by followHim View Post
    For me within my free will, the truth drives me on to Christ because of who He is.
    I do not have a choice as everything within me calls out that He is the Lord of All.
    God bless you
    "Freewill" with no choice?
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Yes. I was aware.


    Understood: Pavlov, BF Skinner, etc. - Operant Conditioning


    The difference is whether external forces shape your life in a predictable duplicate-able manner, or whether you have internal qualities that allow you to bypass external stimuli. Such is given under 'classic conditioning' under Pavlov etc. but the difference is how predictable we become. Skinner believed man was invariably predictable given outside stimuli. That too, is why we classify 'mass' behavior and thinking (often associated with lemming behavior).


    Its an age-old debate. What makes the difference in temptation and resistance is Christ. Prior? You will do whatever your made-nature desires. You are in a vehicle of human-flesh and it'll go to the hospital whether you give consent or not because of outside stimuli beyond your control.
    I do not argue we have no internal motivators, but rather concede that they are shaped predictably by outside influences.


    Again, this is agreed upon. My stance and statement is, sin caused this condition, not God.
    So, I don't argue we don't have it, but that we were not originally supposed to have it. Eating the tree was forbidden, not a gift.


    A couple of points where we agree and disagree:
    1) Yes God worked against our condition which involves this will that desires 'other than Him' when enacting the process of Salvation.
    2) I disagree He defers to it, and 3) that choice is an act of love on our parts. It is too much 'me' for it to be truly loving when coming to Christ.
    4) God does use all things to work together for good, which does include the poor choices and character of sin in our lives.
    5) Not in deference to freewill, but largely to deliver us 'from' it.

    Did He? "Free" will would suggest He could have done either without consequence. I don't believe that could have been the case, thus without an actual choice, given His nature = No choice. His very nature was to do the will of the Father because He was one with Him. Whatever we see in the Garden, we have to ensure we are reading the context correctly and for me, the danger is either or both of us can draw false conclusions readily. Instead, I do pull that taking on your and my sin was extremely difficult and it reminds me how terrible even some of my 'lesser' evils were for Him. The topic of the Son's will vs. the Father's is more difficult theologically.


    "Freewill" with no choice?
    Thank you for this. This is well thought through.

    I notice you have put an interesting constraint on how one defines free will.
    If free will creates two consequences one which is good or favourable, and the
    other unfavourable, you declare that removes choice.

    But choice can be perverse, ie. you choose the worst option because you want to.
    Free will as a definition is this option. Free will allows us to construct as many
    layers as we want to finally come to a decision. For me the limitation of options
    does not invalidate the choice to be made, or empower the argument for determinism.

    We are bounded by the world and its limitations. So I use the term free will in the
    aspect of moral responsibility and where our hearts are. It is what creates guilt,
    when we choose to hurt another for our own benefit.

    God provided the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
    The argument was God was hiding something from man, because with it man could be free.
    Death was not inevitable.

    The choice was trust God and work it through, or choose death and take the risk of
    knowing. Man chose death. Face to face with God and chosing death, suggests to me
    there was no way back for Adam and Eve. And God knew this is the choice that would be
    made, and that redemption through the cross was the only solution. How truly lost is
    man, in history and in existence. And the real question is how and why do we live?
    For selfish gain or for love and Gods ways?

    Ironically our choice to search for God is God calling us, and answering. And I cannot
    fathom the end to this repeat, just bow and acknowledge His is our King, the Lord of All.
    God bless you

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    Quote Originally Posted by followHim View Post
    Thank you for this. This is well thought through.

    I notice you have put an interesting constraint on how one defines free will.
    If free will creates two consequences one which is good or favourable, and the
    other unfavourable, you declare that removes choice.

    But choice can be perverse, ie. you choose the worst option because you want to.
    Free will as a definition is this option. Free will allows us to construct as many
    layers as we want to finally come to a decision. For me the limitation of options
    does not invalidate the choice to be made, or empower the argument for determinism.

    We are bounded by the world and its limitations. So I use the term free will in the
    aspect of moral responsibility and where our hearts are. It is what creates guilt,
    when we choose to hurt another for our own benefit.

    God provided the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
    The argument was God was hiding something from man, because with it man could be free.
    Death was not inevitable.

    The choice was trust God and work it through, or choose death and take the risk of
    knowing. Man chose death. Face to face with God and chosing death, suggests to me
    there was no way back for Adam and Eve. And God knew this is the choice that would be
    made, and that redemption through the cross was the only solution. How truly lost is
    man, in history and in existence. And the real question is how and why do we live?
    For selfish gain or for love and Gods ways?

    Ironically our choice to search for God is God calling us, and answering. And I cannot
    fathom the end to this repeat, just bow and acknowledge His is our King, the Lord of All.
    God bless you
    Could you please not space out your posts like this. I'm not sure if you're copy/pasting from another text box or something, but whatever you're doing, it's adding a line break after every line in your post, which makes it extremely difficult to read on Tapatalk, because it spaces out each line, without any regard to you starting a new paragraph.

    This is what it looks like on Tapatalk, tell me if that's easy to read.



    Could you please, from now on, go through and remove the line breaks from your posts where they're not necessary, so that mobile users (and even desktop site users) don't have to deal with them?

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Could you please not space out your posts like this. I'm not sure if you're copy/pasting from another text box or something, but whatever you're doing, it's adding a line break after every line in your post, which makes it extremely difficult to read on Tapatalk, because it spaces out each line, without any regard to you starting a new paragraph.

    This is what it looks like on Tapatalk, tell me if that's easy to read.



    Could you please, from now on, go through and remove the line breaks from your posts where they're not necessary, so that mobile users (and even desktop site users) don't have to deal with them?
    I will try. Different sites respond in different ways to how you post text. Putting on ones own spaces sometimes makes it easier to read. I will have to adjust for this site, God bless you. I have noticed using these text input formatting boxes, some put in a space and a spare line at the end of every paragraph, while others do not.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to followHim For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (August 23rd, 2019)

  10. #249
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by followHim View Post
    Thank you for this. This is well thought through.

    I notice you have put an interesting constraint on how one defines free will.
    If free will creates two consequences one which is good or favourable, and the
    other unfavourable, you declare that removes choice.
    Spoiler

    But choice can be perverse, ie. you choose the worst option because you want to.
    Free will as a definition is this option. Free will allows us to construct as many
    layers as we want to finally come to a decision. For me the limitation of options
    does not invalidate the choice to be made, or empower the argument for determinism.

    We are bounded by the world and its limitations. So I use the term free will in the
    aspect of moral responsibility and where our hearts are. It is what creates guilt,
    when we choose to hurt another for our own benefit.

    God provided the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
    The argument was God was hiding something from man, because with it man could be free.
    Death was not inevitable.

    The choice was trust God and work it through, or choose death and take the risk of
    knowing. Man chose death. Face to face with God and chosing death, suggests to me
    there was no way back for Adam and Eve. And God knew this is the choice that would be
    made, and that redemption through the cross was the only solution. How truly lost is
    man, in history and in existence. And the real question is how and why do we live?
    For selfish gain or for love and Gods ways?


    Ironically our choice to search for God is God calling us, and answering. And I cannot
    fathom the end to this repeat, just bow and acknowledge His is our King, the Lord of All.
    God bless you
    Yes, this is how I see it too. Thank you as well and thanks to you and JudgeRightly for ensuring I could read it! In Him. -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  11. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Huh? I don't know what you talking about.

    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
    Thus why you fail... you must seek the truth... Not wait to be told what to believe!

    Jesus teaches this truth from the beginning... Jesus exposed these truths in his own time! Yet you fail to see!

    Stop following the teaching of men!



    Paul
    Last edited by JudgeRightly; August 27th, 2019 at 12:41 PM.
    From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,
    From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
    From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
    Oh God of Truth, deliver us.

    ~ Ancient Prayer

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