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Thread: What should be the punishment for rape?

  1. #16
    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
    What about it? The OP is referencing the act of rape. Rapists should receive the DP.
    We don't have a definition for rape. Does it include those who are already with a committed spouse by betrothal, engagement, and marriage only?

    Or is it a measure of force?

    If not married some might say that it was consensual to get away with it.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson View Post
    Deuteronomy 22:28,29 "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days."
    Amen. I believe that you understand.

    Do you believe that this is not rape or that it is?
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Censorship is the height of vanity Rusha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    We don't have a definition for rape. Does it include those who are already with a committed spouse by betrothal, engagement, and marriage only?

    Or is it a measure of force?

    If not married some might say that it was consensual to get away with it.
    Rape is non-consensual sex.
    Power is neither good nor evil. It just is. It's what people do with power that matters.
    C.J. Redwine, The Traitor Prince






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    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
    Rape is non-consensual sex.
    Some people say in marriage. Meaning a husband could rape his wife.

    The problem is that by saying consensual is okay (are you saying this?) is wrong in situations where it is not okay. See Post 12 for what happens if two have consensual sex and they are neither of them married, engaged, or betrothed. Marriage after this is required. In what situation can the father say no to the man?
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Censorship is the height of vanity Rusha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Some people say in marriage. Meaning a husband could rape his wife.

    The problem is that by saying consensual is okay (are you saying this?) is wrong in situations where it is not okay. See Post 12 for what happens if two have consensual sex and they are neither of them married, engaged, or betrothed. Marriage after this is required. In what situation can the father say no to the man?
    I am using *consent* as a criteria for rape.
    Power is neither good nor evil. It just is. It's what people do with power that matters.
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    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
    I am using *consent* as a criteria for rape.
    Is that the law and do you believe that it is God's Law? Your terms are progressing, but I am staying with Torah so far.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Censorship is the height of vanity Rusha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Is that the law and do you believe that it is God's Law? Your terms are progressing, but I am staying with Torah so far.
    What I believe is that God is a loving God who would not endorse rape under any circumstances.
    Power is neither good nor evil. It just is. It's what people do with power that matters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
    What I believe is that God is a loving God who would not endorse rape under any circumstances.
    Yes. But consent for an engaged woman with someone she is not engaged to is not lawful. It still results in death for the man. Like with a married woman. Adultery is not circumvented by consent. If she gives her consent, then is she also to be blamed? Does he not know she is engaged or married?
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

  11. #24
    Censorship is the height of vanity Rusha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Yes. But consent for an engaged woman with someone she is not engaged to is not lawful. It still results in death for the man. Like with a married woman. Adultery is not circumvented by consent. If she gives her consent, then is she also to be blamed? Does he not know she is engaged or married?
    You are posting in politics in regards to rape. An illegal act. Absent consent, sex would be forced .... aka rape. Adultery (while evil) is not in the same category. It is not a sexual assault.
    Power is neither good nor evil. It just is. It's what people do with power that matters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
    You are posting in politics in regards to rape. An illegal act. Absent consent, sex would be forced .... aka rape. Adultery (while evil) is not in the same category. It is not a sexual assault.
    Okay. But adultery is a punishable offense, even without a sexual assault, rape.

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    Censorship is the height of vanity Rusha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Okay. But adultery is a punishable offense, even without a sexual assault, rape.
    Adultery IS a sin. It is punishable by God, not man. You are legally bound by the laws of our nation and spiritually bound by the laws of God.
    Power is neither good nor evil. It just is. It's what people do with power that matters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
    Adultery IS a sin. It is punishable by God, not man. You are legally bound by the laws of our nation and spiritually bound by the laws of God.
    You can be punished on earth in a court for adultery.

    I wasn't thinking of rape as sexual assault. More having sex with someone that you shouldn't. But a man might rape his wife so I understand that now.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Super Moderator Jefferson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Amen. I believe that you understand.

    Do you believe that this is not rape or that it is?
    Deut. 22:28,29 is not speaking of rape. He seduced her and "they" were found out. It was obviously consentual.
    WARNING: Graphic video here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson View Post
    Deut. 22:28,29 is not speaking of rape. He seduced her and "they" were found out. It was obviously consentual.
    So it is possible to have sex when not married or engaged and it not be rape. I guess so!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Is that the law and do you believe that it is God's Law? Your terms are progressing, but I am staying with Torah so far.
    You are not staying with what the Torah speaks to.

    Deuteronomy 22:25 ¶But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
    26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
    27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
    If there are no witnesses how is force to be proven? If he beats her badly enough to wound her? The text doesn't speak to that at all. It speaks to her saying no and asking for help but no one being there to hear her cries. Her story is taken at face value, and the man is executed by stoning. This passage speaks directly to consent. And so do the other verses in this chapter.

    Deuteronomy 22:23¶If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
    24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
    Notice, consent is assumed in this case because if the woman had made a big objection to having sex someone would have heard her because she was inside a city. The same goes for the circumstances in verse 22. The woman is assumed to have given consent because the adultery happened inside the walls of a city and no one heard her scream for help. Remember, these were cities without major traffic noise and glassed in windows so sound carried much better in them than it does in a modern city.

    You are the one that isn't even coming close to taking a position that agrees with scripture.

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