User Tag List

Page 5 of 63 FirstFirst ... 23456781555 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 945

Thread: No Death Penalty. What Is Your Position?

  1. #61
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    9,575
    Thanks
    634
    Thanked 6,757 Times in 3,601 Posts

    Mentioned
    62 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147772
    Quote Originally Posted by glassjester View Post
    I suppose then, Christ was wrong to stop the stoning of the adulteress?
    By the way, my post asked you a question. It was a rhetorical question based on your own premise. That premise being, "Of course the moral code remains. That which was morally wrong then, remains morally wrong today."

    Why, if you believe that premise, was the point made by my rhetorical question insufficient to convince you? Is it because you really do believe that Jesus abolished the death penalty in John 8 and therefore your mind went instinctively to what you see as a contradiction to the line of reasoning or is it something else?


    That's a real question, by the way! I don't understand why people are so resistent to allowing sound reason to persuade their mind, especially when that reason is based specifically on a premise that they've already accepted as true. It just doesn't make sense to me at all.


    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (May 12th, 2019),ok doser (May 12th, 2019)

  3. #62
    Over 4000 post club glassjester's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    4,830
    Thanks
    604
    Thanked 1,383 Times in 1,079 Posts

    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    293909
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    That's a real question, by the way! I don't understand why people are so resistent to allowing sound reason to persuade their mind, especially when that reason is based specifically on a premise that they've already accepted as true. It just doesn't make sense to me at all.
    I am wondering how you determine which OT laws are binding in Christians, and which are not. I brought up the adulteress of John 8 because she was caught in adultery (meaning there must have been witnesses), yet she was not executed. You've pointed out that no accusers came forward - which is true. But I'm still wondering - which OT laws/penalties do you consider binding on Christians, and which do you not? And why?

    It is my understanding that many crimes of the OT warranted the death penalty - such as: cursing one's parents, falsely presenting oneself as a virgin for marriage, blaspheming, false prophecy, breaking the sabbath, sacrificing to a false god...

    Do you advocate for the death penalty for all of these crimes? And if not, why not?
    Your "catholic" is showing. - Sozo

  4. #63
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    25,368
    Thanks
    4,009
    Thanked 9,625 Times in 7,172 Posts

    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147783
    Quote Originally Posted by glassjester View Post
    I am wondering how you determine which OT laws are binding in Christians, and which are not. I brought up the adulteress of John 8 because she was caught in adultery ....

    she was "taken in adultery, in the very act"



    unless she was committing adultery by herself, with herself, the man was also caught or observed, if not "taken"

    and the law required both participants to be brought before a judge

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to ok doser For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (May 12th, 2019)

  6. #64
    Over 4000 post club glassjester's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    4,830
    Thanks
    604
    Thanked 1,383 Times in 1,079 Posts

    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    293909
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    she was "taken in adultery, in the very act"



    unless she was committing adultery by herself, with herself, the man was also caught or observed, if not "taken"

    and the law required both participants to be brought before a judge
    Right. So I'll ask you the same thing I asked Clete. How do you distinguish between the OT laws that are binding on Christians, and those that aren't?

    Similarly, do you support the death penalty for all the capital offenses listed in the OT? And if not, why not?
    Your "catholic" is showing. - Sozo

  7. #65
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    25,368
    Thanks
    4,009
    Thanked 9,625 Times in 7,172 Posts

    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147783
    Quote Originally Posted by glassjester View Post
    Right. So I'll ask you the same thing I asked Clete. How do you distinguish between the OT laws that are binding on Christians, and those that aren't?

    Similarly, do you support the death penalty for all the capital offenses listed in the OT? And if not, why not?


    Clete can answer that better than I can - I've seen his reasoning and agree with it

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to ok doser For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (May 12th, 2019)

  9. #66
    Over 4000 post club glassjester's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    4,830
    Thanks
    604
    Thanked 1,383 Times in 1,079 Posts

    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    293909
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    Clete can answer that better than I can - I've seen his reasoning and agree with it
    Alright...
    Your "catholic" is showing. - Sozo

  10. #67
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Precariously balanced on top of a mineshaft
    Posts
    15,978
    Thanks
    9,875
    Thanked 7,753 Times in 5,210 Posts

    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147767
    Quote Originally Posted by glassjester View Post
    Right. So I'll ask you the same thing I asked Clete. How do you distinguish between the OT laws that are binding on Christians, and those that aren't?

    Similarly, do you support the death penalty for all the capital offenses listed in the OT? And if not, why not?
    In essence, those who support the DP for adultery and homosexuality for anyone in society nowadays are religious extremists, little removed from their Islamic counterparts. There's good reason why we have laws that separate church and state where such can't be implemented.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Arthur Brain For Your Post:

    Rusha (May 12th, 2019)

  12. #68
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    25,368
    Thanks
    4,009
    Thanked 9,625 Times in 7,172 Posts

    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147783
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    she was "taken in adultery, in the very act"



    unless she was committing adultery by herself, with herself, the man was also caught or observed, if not "taken"

    and the law required both participants to be brought before a judge
    i wanted to come back to this, then i have to scoot - a woman "taken in adultery, in the very act" could claim that she was the victim of rape - a judge would need to have both participants before him for questioning, as well as the witnesses, in order to determine the truth of the matter

  13. #69
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    25,368
    Thanks
    4,009
    Thanked 9,625 Times in 7,172 Posts

    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147783
    artie does his impersonation of a broken record:
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    In essence, those who support the DP for adultery and homosexuality for anyone in society nowadays are religious extremists, little removed from their Islamic counterparts.




    does it make you feel better to call people "religious extremists"?

    do you realize how foolish you look when you fail to acknowledge that Jesus was a "religious extremist"?


    Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to ok doser For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (May 12th, 2019)

  15. #70
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Precariously balanced on top of a mineshaft
    Posts
    15,978
    Thanks
    9,875
    Thanked 7,753 Times in 5,210 Posts

    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147767
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Good question! A little sacrilegious in tone, perhaps, but the point your question makes is a valid one. (It is just fascinating to me how these discussions about the death penalty always go down the same paths.)

    Of course Jesus was not wrong.

    There was more going on in John chapter 8 than a lesson on forgiveness. In fact, it has nothing to do with forgiveness at all. Using this episode as an argument against the death penalty is a classic, textbook example of taking a scripture out of context.

    First of all the Jews were attempting to trap Jesus. (John 8:6) They hoped to accomplish this by getting Jesus to consent to her execution because Rome didn't allow the Jews to execute criminals (John 18:31).
    It is clear, however, that Jesus did not come to abolish the Mosaic law. (Mat. 5:17-19, Mat. 8:4, Mat. 23:2-3, John 7:19-23 and elsewhere.)

    So, Jesus is caught between getting into trouble with the Romans before His appointed time or violating the Mosaic Law, or so the Pharisees thought. But Jesus is smarter than they gave Him credit for being.

    The Mosaic law doesn't say to "kill any adulterous you happen to find". That isn't what it says. The Law requires the testimony of two or three witnesses. It was when those called to testify against her refused to do so that Jesus also refused to condemn her to death (John 8:11). He didn't forgive the sin and He didn't proclaim the death penalty unjust nor did He abolish it. On the contrary, He followed the Law precisely while avoiding the trap set for Him by His enemies.

    Clete

    P.S. For a full understanding of the what the bible says about the death penalty, read the following article...

    What Does the Bible Say About the Death Penalty
    What do you suppose Jesus wrote on the ground that convicted the mob to slowly shuffle off and why was such even mentioned?

    Do you honestly think that even if it were lawfully justified at the time for this woman to be stoned to death that Jesus would have let the crowd go ahead and do it?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


  16. #71
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    25,368
    Thanks
    4,009
    Thanked 9,625 Times in 7,172 Posts

    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147783
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    What do you suppose Jesus wrote on the ground that convicted the mob to slowly shuffle off and why was such even mentioned?
    Leviticus 20:10

    retards think it was something like "adultery is ok now!"

    obviously you're not a retard artie, you're a brilliant man with a keen intellect

    what do you think he wrote?

    Do you honestly think that even if it were lawfully justified at the time for this woman to be stoned to death that Jesus would have let the crowd go ahead and do it?
    do I honestly think that Jesus would have allowed the law to be followed?



    Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    yes

    yes i do
    Last edited by ok doser; May 12th, 2019 at 04:19 PM.

  17. #72
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Precariously balanced on top of a mineshaft
    Posts
    15,978
    Thanks
    9,875
    Thanked 7,753 Times in 5,210 Posts

    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147767
    Quote Originally Posted by glassjester View Post
    What good does it accomplish, even if with 100% proof of guilt?
    Well, as others have pointed out they wouldn't be able to do it again, but I'm not as hardline. I'm far more in favour of maximum security tight prisons where there's no possibility of escape or eradicating loopholes allowing violent offenders the potential to recommit similar crimes. I think the age and context of the crime has to be taken into account as well. I recall Red's character in The Shawshank Redemption. A stupid teenager who by the time his character is introduced is far from the same and a danger to nobody. It's not a black and white subject but my main objection to the DP is the inevitable wrongful convictions and especially as how some would have it implemented whereby 100% proof of guilt wouldn't even be necessary.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Arthur Brain For Your Post:

    Rusha (May 12th, 2019)

  19. #73
    Over 4000 post club glassjester's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    4,830
    Thanks
    604
    Thanked 1,383 Times in 1,079 Posts

    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    293909
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    So do you support the death penalty for cursing one's parents? or for breaking the sabbath?
    Your "catholic" is showing. - Sozo

  20. #74
    Over 4000 post club glassjester's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    4,830
    Thanks
    604
    Thanked 1,383 Times in 1,079 Posts

    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    293909
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Well, as others have pointed out they wouldn't be able to do it again, but I'm not as hardline. I'm far more in favour of maximum security tight prisons where there's no possibility of escape or eradicating loopholes allowing violent offenders the potential to recommit similar crimes. I think the age and context of the crime has to be taken into account as well. I recall Red's character in The Shawshank Redemption. A stupid teenager who by the time his character is introduced is far from the same and a danger to nobody. It's not a black and white subject but my main objection to the DP is the inevitable wrongful convictions and especially as how some would have it implemented whereby 100% proof of guilt wouldn't even be necessary.
    I'm only in support of it if there's absolutely no other way to keep the person from attacking others. But practically speaking, that might be never. Or maybe only when killing in self-defense (or defense of another).
    Your "catholic" is showing. - Sozo

  21. #75
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    25,368
    Thanks
    4,009
    Thanked 9,625 Times in 7,172 Posts

    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147783
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    What do you suppose Jesus wrote on the ground that convicted the mob to slowly shuffle off and why was such even mentioned?
    Leviticus 20:10

    retards think it was something like "adultery is ok now!"

    obviously you're not a retard artie, you're a brilliant man with a keen intellect

    what do you think he wrote?

  22. The Following User Says Thank You to ok doser For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (May 12th, 2019)

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us