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Thread: What the Law and the Bible say about Homosexuality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Uh, yeah, society would just be one happy utopia and nobody would have sex outside of heterosexual marriage at all...

    uh, yeah, that's exactly what Clete was suggesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Well, that's an objective source...

    You think Hitler and most of the Nazis were gay? You buy into the "Pink Swastika" bunk? You do realize that many homosexuals were murdered by the Nazi regime, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    There are all kinds of possitive resutls a society enjoys from having just laws. If, for example, you recriminalized adultery, you'd have less murder, STDs, cirvical cancer, drug use, teen pregnancy, teen suicide, prison polution, etc, etc, etc.

    All because you enacted one single just law!

    Clete
    Sort of reminds me of a class discussion in one of my courses on law in college. The professor pointed out that the two safest most crime free cities to live in the 20th Century were Nazi Berlin prior to the war really turning bad for them and Moscow at the height of the Soviet Union. Both societies had far less murder, STDs, cervical cancer, drug use, etc, etc, etc. All by enacting what they felt were just laws and a willingness to ignore the oppression of 'undesirables'. But his question to the class was, would you want to live there?
    "Repubs must not allow [The President] to subvert the Constitution of the US for his own benefit & because he is unable to negotiate w/ Congress," Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Well, that's an objective source...

    You think Hitler and most of the Nazis were gay? You buy into the "Pink Swastika" bunk? You do realize that many homosexuals were murdered by the Nazi regime, right?
    And not particularly hard to generate a similar list from any sizable group.
    "Repubs must not allow [The President] to subvert the Constitution of the US for his own benefit & because he is unable to negotiate w/ Congress," Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    Sort of reminds me of a class discussion in one of my courses on law in college. The professor pointed out that the two safest most crime free cities to live in the 20th Century were Nazi Berlin prior to the war really turning bad for them and Moscow at the height of the Soviet Union. Both societies had far less murder, STDs, cervical cancer, drug use, etc, etc, etc. All by enacting what they felt were just laws and a willingness to ignore the oppression of 'undesirables'. But his question to the class was, would you want to live there?
    You know you've won the debate when your oponent defends child molesters while comparing you to Nazis and Communists.

    Good bye, Kit. You've earned a spot on my ignore list.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    Sort of reminds me of a class discussion in one of my courses on law in college. The professor pointed out that the two safest most crime free cities to live in the 20th Century were Nazi Berlin prior to the war really turning bad for them and Moscow at the height of the Soviet Union. Both societies had far less murder, STDs, cervical cancer, drug use, etc, etc, etc. All by enacting what they felt were just laws and a willingness to ignore the oppression of 'undesirables'. But his question to the class was, would you want to live there?
    In America, the most horrible cities to live in are run by Democrats

    Democrats today are socialists.
    Democrats today are now for infanticide.
    Democrats today support sexual deviants.
    Democrats today molest the minds of children with sexual perversity.
    Democrats today are for massive taxes.
    Democrats today are anti-semite Jew haters and Muslim Fascist apologists.
    Democrats today are everything that is wrong with America.

    Democrats today are the embodiment of all that is evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    "Think it to be legal"?
    I am not trying to pick a fight or start an argument.
    It is either legal or it isn't. Whether it legal or not is not a matter of opinion. The law is either on the books or it isn't. A judge does not get to make up the law or to simply ignore it (theoretically speaking, of course. There are judges in this country who do this all the time but that's a whole different problem). A judge cannot be just if the laws he is adjudicating are unjust. If a judge in this country were to decide to punish someone for being homosexual, it wouldn't be long before the homosexual was set free and the judge was the one being punished.
    The point is that God made it illegal so man doesn't get to say that it is legal, whatever it is.
    In other words, justice is not defined by the law - any law. It is perfectly legal to murder babies in this country so long as they haven't been born yet. That doesn't make it just.
    I do not believe that it is legal to murder babies.
    The bible has been the basis for western civilization's jurisprudence for centuries and has served as the standard of morality for just as long. Anyone who tells you that this country was never a Christian nation is either stupid or lying.
    Laws against sexual immorality are certainly not ceremonial laws if it makes a difference with determining if any nation follows or observes the Law of Moses. I have had difficulty with the term ceremonial law, but in general it is because I accept sacrifice as Biblical from Torah on.
    Active?
    Yes. Right.
    In what way is it active?
    Meaning that it has the potential to bring about a just death.
    What nation enforces the Mosaic Law? Who was the last person executed for collecting food or fire wood on the Sabbath? Where are the ashes of the last bull sacrificed on the alter? Who was the last to offer a sin offering that actually counted? (I know the answer to that last one!)
    When I was a child I learned about this commandment in the back yard of my parents home. There were sticks under the tree, and I was not to pick them up on the Sabbath. Even if my parents did not tell me this, I knew, and I believe God was teaching me about it.
    Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


    Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
    Well, the next time someone asks you why homosexuality ought to be illegal, you'll have something more substantive to say than "because the bible says so".
    It is good. That's why God outlawed homosexuality and other forms of sexual perversion. It leads to misery and death all over the place in various and even counter-intuitive ways.
    Okay.
    WHAT?
    What are you talking about? It is entirely legal in several states for homos to get married. And, if you're legally married in one state, that marriage is recognized in every state of the Union. You can pretend like that isn't true but you're just stupid if you do.
    Doesn't make sense to me. It is against God's Law. Just because someone thinks this does not make it true.
    "God would never allow it"? What does that even mean? Of course He'd "allow it". Just the same way He "allows" people to rape and murder and commit all kinds of evil every minute of every day.
    Meaning no one gets away with sin.


    Exodus 34:7
    who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”

    Proverbs 11:21
    Assuredly, the evil man will not go unpunished,
    But the descendants of the righteous will be delivered.

    Jeremiah 30:11
    ‘For I am with you,' declares the LORD, ‘to save you;
    For I will destroy completely all the nations where I have scattered you,
    Only I will not destroy you completely.
    But I will chasten you justly
    And will by no means leave you unpunished.'

    Jer 46:28
    “O Jacob My servant, do not fear,” declares the LORD,
    “For I am with you.
    For I will make a full end of all the nations
    Where I have driven you,
    Yet I will not make a full end of you;
    But I will correct you properly
    And by no means leave you unpunished.”

    Nahum 1:3
    The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
    And the LORD will by no means leave the guilty unpunished.
    In whirlwind and storm is His way,
    And clouds are the dust beneath His feet.
    English please.
    Commandments found in the Torah should be observed however they read there, whatever words or terms we use to describe them, such as saying capital punishment or the death penalty or execution. If a person is executed, it is according to Torah Law and not another way, to be in keeping with Torah Law or in keeping with Torah Law in keeping with Torah.
    What?
    Who was the last person convicted of adultery in this country?
    I don't know.
    Biblically speaking adultery is not just a crime, its a capital crime. When was the last time anyone anywhere in western civilization was executed for having committed adultery?
    I don't know.
    Have you completely lost your mind? What are you even talking about? Of course it's legal!
    Nope.
    The pornography industry makes more money annually than Major League Baseball, The NFL and The NBA combined.
    Shame. Illegal activity.
    The point was that people have no idea what justice even looks like. They have no idea what the laws should be or why and that includes the overwhelming majority of Christians and Jews who literally have no excuse whatsoever for their near total ignorance or what is right and was is wrong. Christians and Jews are both much more interested in being nice than they are in being just.
    Grace and then mercy triumphs over judgment. I think about where mercy and judgment kiss but I don't remember if this is what the Bible says or something like it. It is not excusing evil or withholding judgment perhaps I think. But then what is mercy?
    In the context of criminal justice, justice for the criminal is mercy for the society in which the crime was committed. Conversely, mercy shown to the criminal is a crime committed against the society.
    Yep.
    Deuteronomy 19:19 then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. 20 And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. 21 Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    Shalom.

    You have a good head on your shoulders Clete. Keep up the good work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    You know you've won the debate when your oponent defends child molesters while comparing you to Nazis and Communists.

    Good bye, Kit. You've earned a spot on my ignore list.
    Your own "gay mass murderers" link erroneously compared homosexuals with Nazis so you either didn't read it properly or you blithely just went along with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    Sort of reminds me of a class discussion in one of my courses on law in college. The professor pointed out that the two safest most crime free cities to live in the 20th Century were Nazi Berlin prior to the war really turning bad for them and Moscow at the height of the Soviet Union. Both societies had far less murder, STDs, cervical cancer, drug use, etc, etc, etc. All by enacting what they felt were just laws and a willingness to ignore the oppression of 'undesirables'. But his question to the class was, would you want to live there?
    Oppressive laws, the likes of which some people advocate don't lead to healthy and happy societies at all, just an oppressed citizenry.

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    Right and morals.

    People think they have the right to disobey God, to go against His commandments, to break or transgress His Law. But they do not.

    If you think legislation works better from the perspective of defending people's rights rather than a moral basis, what basis for law would you have that is not moral? It simply does not work to make laws that do not deal with morality. Why defend rights? What right need to be defended? A right to engage in sexual immorality? No. That is not a right that should be defended.

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    I looked up the term sodomy last night and have a confession to make today. When I was a child I abused my little sister. I can say that this was sexually, but there was no sex. Sodomy includes oral sex so though there was no sex there was oral sex, forced. I have a lot to learn. I was just a child, but I live my life wanting to be punished by God and wondering if I will be punished by an earthly source of morality or authority. Now I have a term for what happened. It was with my sister. She is the victim to me the perpetrator. This may make it worse, but in a way for me it makes it better to say something. When I think of God's Law I think of how I am guilty, not how I am innocent. If there is a commandment I can comment on if I am guilty or not. There is a commandment not to sleep with your sister. Well, that did not happen, even with a tree house I think. So I have these Bible verses that I am thinking about.


    Romans 1:32
    and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

    Proverbs 6:29
    So is the one who goes in to his neighbor's wife;
    Whoever touches her will not go unpunished.
    My sister may marry some day. So I am guilty! It doesn't make any difference that I was just a child because I know what occurred. It was wrong and I am sorry for it. I am sorry to whoever one day may become her husband and make her his wife, if she chooses to get married.

    Talking about these things in broad daylight? Sin.

    Why on this thread are people trying to get away with or justify sodomy, when that is what it is? Sexual immorality, even if it were with a wife (I have never been married) instead of a sister in my father and mother's home.

    I hope this serves as a warning rather than a justification to experiment sexually for anyone. To learn about this is evil, and there is a lot of that in this thread. We face some pretty dark evil stuff in this world. Don't give up on standing for the truth and living to the glory of God rather than for yourself and your own "satisfaction". Sure I would like to be satisfied some day, but maybe not sexually as this can only be self gratification or gratification of a sexual appetite even if I were married or am to become married.

    To be sure the experience was not a welcome one and the evil involved in that act with my sister is something I have to stand before God about if not anyone else as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    You know you've won the debate when your oponent defends child molesters while comparing you to Nazis and Communists.

    Good bye, Kit. You've earned a spot on my ignore list.
    Actually the subject of that discussion was the balance between freedom, civil rights and law
    "Repubs must not allow [The President] to subvert the Constitution of the US for his own benefit & because he is unable to negotiate w/ Congress," Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    In America, the most horrible cities to live in are run by Democrats

    Democrats today are socialists.
    Democrats today are now for infanticide.
    Democrats today support sexual deviants.
    Democrats today molest the minds of children with sexual perversity.
    Democrats today are for massive taxes.
    Democrats today are anti-semite Jew haters and Muslim Fascist apologists.
    Democrats today are everything that is wrong with America.

    Democrats today are the embodiment of all that is evil.
    Quite a broad brush you are painting with there.
    "Repubs must not allow [The President] to subvert the Constitution of the US for his own benefit & because he is unable to negotiate w/ Congress," Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    Quite a broad brush you are painting with there.
    Certainly not one that could be used for finer details...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Right and morals.

    People think they have the right to disobey God, to go against His commandments, to break or transgress His Law. But they do not.

    If you think legislation works better from the perspective of defending people's rights rather than a moral basis, what basis for law would you have that is not moral? It simply does not work to make laws that do not deal with morality. Why defend rights? What right need to be defended? A right to engage in sexual immorality? No. That is not a right that should be defended.
    Rape, child molestation, bestiality are against the law and for glaringly obvious reasons. People have the right to engage in non married, adult relations without religious busybodies having any say in the matter.

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