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Thread: What the Law and the Bible say about Homosexuality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Homosexuality is caused, for the most part, by molesting children. The homosexual group NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association) has a slogan that states, "Sex before eight or it's too late!"
    Just for clarification, this slogan is attributed to the Rene Guyon Society, a pro-pedophile group that was supposedly founded in California. But since there is no real evidence that this group ever existed outside of the other groups talking about it, it is often misattributed to NAMBLA.
    "Repubs must not allow [The President] to subvert the Constitution of the US for his own benefit & because he is unable to negotiate w/ Congress," Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    Ostensibly it would be protecting an animal's rights regarding unwanted sex. Yes, I know that sounds weird, but in America today animals have been given rights at the state level, and since they cannot consent to sex, that means that a human being having sex with an animal is having sex that is not consensual.

    Now, I grant you that many bestiality laws are old and were enacted for moral reasons just like the old sodomy laws were. But it is the new view of animal rights that keeps them from being overturned the way that the sodomy laws were overturned


    ummmm


    no

    and i'll give you a quick example before i get back to work

    my SIL is a dairy farmer - when she wants to artificially inseminate one of her cows, she obtains semen from the bull by manually stimulating him and collecting the ejaculate

    she then dons shoulder length gloves and delivers the semen to the cow's uterus



    if she does this, as she often does, in the performance of her regular activities as a breeder of dairy cows, the law has no interest in her actions

    if she performs the same exact operations for the purpose of her own sexual gratification, the law declares it bestiality and charges her


    same exact actions performed on the animals

    and it has exactly zip to do with "animal rights"


    btw, after she procures semen from the bull, the law doesn't give a fig if she slaughters it, butchers it and eats it

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    Ostensibly it would be protecting an animal's rights regarding unwanted sex.

    now, even if this were true (and it's not) it would not accomodate the obvious example (obvious to anybody who has had a male puppy) of the animal initiating the sex act

    iow, even if the animal initiates the sex act, if the human participates for their own sexual gratification, the law deems it bestiality and charges them

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    now, even if this were true (and it's not) it would not accommodate the obvious example (obvious to anybody who has had a male puppy) of the animal initiating the sex act

    iow, even if the animal initiates the sex act, if the human participates for their own sexual gratification, the law deems it bestiality and charges them
    This is getting too weird for me. I stated my opinion: In a pluralistic society full of many beliefs and religions, you cannot pass laws that are nothing but morals because other people might not share your morals. Laws are intended to protect rights.

    If two people want to practice sodomy, that is their business, not government's business.

    Have we not seen the horrible results of the Left trying to inflict its morals on us?

    I can make legal arguments against gay marriage and abortion, but this sodomy thing is nobody's business

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    duplicate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Your god is politics and the state.

    Good luck with that.
    Um, no, it most assuredly isn't so no luck needed one way or another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    Just for clarification, this slogan is attributed to the Rene Guyon Society, a pro-pedophile group that was supposedly founded in California. But since there is no real evidence that this group ever existed outside of the other groups talking about it, it is often misattributed to NAMBLA.
    The notion that homosexuality is primarily attributed to child molestation is one that's flung about a lot but never seems to be substantiated either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Use whatever prefix you feel is appropriate. The point is that it is not merely immoral, it is a crime and it is, therefore, unjust for it to be legal.
    Anywhere. It is unjust for anyone to think it to be legal anywhere. A just judge would not say that it is legal.
    Torah Law is not in force in the United States, or anywhere else on the planet for that matter. The question is whether you think it should be a part of the American criminal code.
    There is a chapter in the Bible that is about sexual immorality. And I wonder if it has been a part of American Law.

    When the Law was given it is eternal so of course it is active even today though not everyone acts on it. It is my belief that heaven and earth have not passed away.
    Homosexuality is caused, for the most part, by molesting children. The homosexual group NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association) has a slogan that states, "Sex before eight or it's too late!" It is mostly boys who were molested between the ages of five and eight years who grow up to be homosexuals. Fortunately, most children who are so molested do not go on to be gay but the vast majority of gay men where repeatedly molested as children. It is the primary contributing factor. Also, the vast majority of child molestation is committed by men against boys (i.e. it is homosexual in nature).
    I am unfamiliar with this.
    Thus, if homosexuality was re-criminalized and punished according to the principles of justice (i.e. if homosexuals were executed upon conviction) you'd not only rid the society of homosexuality but of child molestation as well. You'd solve both the problem and it's primary cause.
    That sounds good.
    Well, your belief doesn't come into it. The fact is that it is not only legal to be homosexual, it is legal for them to get married and enjoy all the societal benefits thereof.
    I do not believe this to be the case. God would never allow it. Even if people say it is true. Even if people act like it is.
    A person may die for driving their car too fast or for smoking cigarettes or eating too many cheeseburgers.
    I suppose I could mention execution with how the person would die, not just that they die or that they suffer the consequence of their sin in their body, but saying that things should happen according to Torah Law might not use the word execution, capital punishment, death penalty.
    Well, you said a mouth full there!
    Okay. Accepted.
    Even the ones who are serious about God are serious about hating Him and anything that has to do with Him or justice or morality. If you notice, much, if not most, of liberalism is about making society such that people can be sexually immoral without consequence. Homosexuality - legal. Adultery - legal. Fornication - legal. Pornography - legal. Killing unwanted babies - legal. Child molestation is still illegal but the so called "age of consent" continues to be lowered by liberals. Even the average convicted rapist only spends less than five years in prison.
    Adultery is not legal. Neither is fornication or pornography. Laws about abortion are different different places. It is a war going on. People are dead set against the ways of God, and they are not just defending those who have sinned.
    This county (the whole world really) has forgotten what justice looks like so long ago that it looks like barbarism to most people! Almost no one has any idea what justice looks like and would be appalled to hear someone describe it. Think of that! God, the only God that actually exists, who's character defines what is right and just looks to the average liberal like a totally uncivilized barbarian. It's no wonder they hate Him so much.

    Clete
    It is God whose character tells us how we are to act and behave, to love God and others the way God wants us to. From county to country to the whole world. We need justice. We need mercy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgarden View Post
    Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

    The Bible is also quite explicit as to the punishment that awaits those children that "curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death" - but I don't see conservative Christians demanding that this Mosaic law be enacted!

    Could it be that they are also in the habit of "cherry picking" as to which Biblical verses they wish to adhere - and those they choose to ignore?
    Very good point. My Dad and Mom love me. My Dad is my best friend. I have hit him. I have disobeyed my parents. Even wanting to do right. But why this discussion comes with a discussion on homosexuality I do not know. Like murder and homosexuality. My Dad has forgiven me. I should be dead.

    Exodus 21:15
    “He who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

    Deuteronomy 27:16
    ‘Cursed is he who dishonors his father or mother.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    Just for clarification, this slogan is attributed to the Rene Guyon Society, a pro-pedophile group that was supposedly founded in California. But since there is no real evidence that this group ever existed outside of the other groups talking about it, it is often misattributed to NAMBLA.
    Way to defend the child molestation group, Kit.

    Hope you're proud of yourself.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Anywhere. It is unjust for anyone to think it to be legal anywhere. A just judge would not say that it is legal.
    "Think it to be legal"?

    It is either legal or it isn't. Whether it legal or not is not a matter of opinion. The law is either on the books or it isn't. A judge does not get to make up the law or to simply ignore it (theoretically speaking, of course. There are judges in this country who do this all the time but that's a whole different problem). A judge cannot be just if the laws he is adjudicating are unjust. If a judge in this country were to decide to punish someone for being homosexual, it wouldn't be long before the homosexual was set free and the judge was the one being punished.

    In other words, justice is not defined by the law - any law. It is perfectly legal to murder babies in this country so long as they haven't been born yet. That doesn't make it just.

    There is a chapter in the Bible that is about sexual immorality. And I wonder if it has been a part of American Law.
    The bible has been the basis for western civilization's jurisprudence for centuries and has served as the standard of morality for just as long. Anyone who tells you that this country was never a Christian nation is either stupid or lying.

    When the Law was given it is eternal so of course it is active even today though not everyone acts on it. It is my belief that heaven and earth have not passed away.
    Active?

    In what way is it active?

    What nation enforces the Mosaic Law? Who was the last person executed for collecting food or fire wood on the Sabbath? Where are the ashes of the last bull sacrificed on the alter? Who was the last to offer a sin offering that actually counted? (I know the answer to that last one!)

    Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    I am unfamiliar with this.
    Well, the next time someone asks you why homosexuality ought to be illegal, you'll have something more substantive to say than "because the bible says so".

    That sounds good.
    It is good. That's why God outlawed homosexuality and other forms of sexual perversion. It leads to misery and death all over the place in various and even counter-intuitive ways.

    I do not believe this to be the case. God would never allow it. Even if people say it is true. Even if people act like it is.
    WHAT?

    What are you talking about? It is entirely legal in several states for homos to get married. And, if you're legally married in one state, that marriage is recognized in every state of the Union. You can pretend like that isn't true but you're just stupid if you do.

    "God would never allow it"? What does that even mean? Of course He'd "allow it". Just the same way He "allows" people to rape and murder and commit all kinds of evil every minute of every day.

    I suppose I could mention execution with how the person would die, not just that they die or that they suffer the consequence of their sin in their body, but saying that things should happen according to Torah Law might not use the word execution, capital punishment, death penalty.
    English please.

    Adultery is not legal.
    What?

    Who was the last person convicted of adultery in this country?

    Biblically speaking adultery is not just a crime, its a capital crime. When was the last time anyone anywhere in western civilization was executed for having committed adultery?

    Neither is fornication or pornography.
    Have you completely lost your mind? What are you even talking about? Of course it's legal!

    The pornography industry makes more money annually than Major League Baseball, The NFL and The NBA combined.

    Laws about abortion are different [in] different places. It is a war going on. People are dead set against the ways of God, and they are not just defending those who have sinned.
    The point was that people have no idea what justice even looks like. They have no idea what the laws should be or why and that includes the overwhelming majority of Christians and Jews who literally have no excuse whatsoever for their near total ignorance or what is right and was is wrong. Christians and Jews are both much more interested in being nice than they are in being just.

    It is God whose character tells us how we are to act and behave, to love God and others the way God wants us to. From county to country to the whole world. We need justice. We need mercy.
    In the context of criminal justice, justice for the criminal is mercy for the society in which the crime was committed. Conversely, mercy shown to the criminal is a crime committed against the society.

    Deuteronomy 19:19 then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. 20 And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. 21 Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    The notion that homosexuality is primarily attributed to child molestation is one that's flung about a lot but never seems to be substantiated either.
    https://stream.org/yes-childhood-sex...homosexuality/


    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...Unsafe-Sex.pdf

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...45213492900878

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3535560/

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    This is getting too weird for me.
    ok

    I stated my opinion: In a pluralistic society full of many beliefs and religions, you cannot pass laws that are nothing but morals because other people might not share your morals. Laws are intended to protect rights.
    you're analyzing only part way

    you see law and claim that it is rooted in some abstraction called "rights"

    and then stop

    and don't recognize that "rights" are rooted in morality

    If two people want to practice sodomy, that is their business, not government's business.
    if one of those people is a 14 year old boy who is participating willingly, without a recognition of morality, how is that your business, how is that the government's business?

    whose "rights" are being protected?

    the boy's rights?
    the other guy's rights?
    your rights?
    my rights?


    Have we not seen the horrible results of the Left trying to inflict its morals on us?
    we've seen the horrible effects of the Left inflicting it's immorality on us

    the answer to immorality isn't a rejection of Godly morality, it's a rejection of immorality

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    ok



    you're analyzing only part way

    you see law and claim that it is rooted in some abstraction called "rights"

    and then stop

    and don't recognize that "rights" are rooted in morality



    if one of those people is a 14 year old boy who is participating willingly, without a recognition of morality, how is that your business, how is that the government's business?

    whose "rights" are being protected?

    the boy's rights?
    the other guy's rights?
    your rights?
    my rights?




    we've seen the horrible effects of the Left inflicting it's immorality on us

    the answer to immorality isn't a rejection of Godly morality, it's a rejection of immorality
    Rights, morality, and law are all interrelated. Yes, some laws are immoral, and not all immorality is illegal, but that doesn't break the relationships between the three for laws are also created and enforced to protect our rights. That is why the destruction of the rule of law in this nation is so heinous and such a destruction of liberty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    Rights, morality, and law are all interrelated. Yes, some laws are immoral, and not all immorality is illegal, but that doesn't break the relationships between the three for laws are also created and enforced to protect our rights. That is why the destruction of the rule of law in this nation is so heinous and such a destruction of liberty.
    it's a natural consequence from the selfishness that enveloped the country in the sixties and seventies - the foolish belief that freedom means freedom from consequences

    i've been considering lately that it may have been an unavoidable reaction to the deprivation and self-sacrifice of the 30's and 40's

    don't know if you are familiar with Charles Murray or his book Coming Apart, in which he lays a lot of the current social ills at the feet of the collapse of marriage as an institution


    yes, on the individual level, an argument can be made that the individual should have the right to divorce

    but on a societal level, it's a recipe for disaster


    worth a listen if you have the time:


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