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Thread: What the Law and the Bible say about Homosexuality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    Criminalization is ridiculous. These people suffer from a mental issue. How can we criminalize that?
    What do you mean by criminalization? There may be a mental issue, but that does not excuse an immoral act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Jacob, that's what I asked you. Do you believe that people possess the inalienable right to not be harassed, forced, pressured, coerced, etc., by police /government, for disobeying God?
    That is very difficult because you pit what may be seen as unjust against whether or not it is okay to disobey God. It's not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    And what action exactly would you criminalize? People are free to have sex however they want to.
    Incorrect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    I meant between consenting adults obviously, not animals or kids or something like that.

    You guys are trying to impose a morality in the form of a law and you cannot do that in our society.

    I assume you want to criminalize sodomy. Will you arrest a man and a woman who have sodomy too?

    Gay marriage is the problem. THAT should never have been legalized. But if two adults want to have weird sex that is nobody's business but their own.
    No one can make it legal. God has already stated that it is illegal.

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    Are there different ways or approaches to this subject, God's Law and Homosexuality, such as from Scripture and what is being looked at, thought of, or considered? For example, not reading a particular chapter for a reason? Or, viewing the entirety of the Law through the Ten Commandments?

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    In the United States of America are there any laws against homosexuality, such as God's Law or otherwise?

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Is the criminalization of homosexuality a making it criminal? Because it already is criminal. Recriminalization would make it criminal again. Decriminalization would make it so that it is no longer criminal.
    Use whatever prefix you feel is appropriate. The point is that it is not merely immoral, it is a crime and it is, therefore, unjust for it to be legal.

    Yes, not only are people worthy of death but some may die because of it, whether by the hands of the state or by a judge and individuals involved with the execution, according to Torah Law that is. It is a capital crime and not enforcing it may be unjust.
    Torah Law is not in force in the United States, or anywhere else on the planet for that matter. The question is whether you think it should be a part of the American criminal code.

    If someone caused another person's homosexuality that is a more difficult situation. But it needs to be dealt with, and repentance must be available even then and even so.
    Homosexuality is caused, for the most part, by molesting children. The homosexual group NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association) has a slogan that states, "Sex before eight or it's too late!" It is mostly boys who were molested between the ages of five and eight years who grow up to be homosexuals. Fortunately, most children who are so molested do not go on to be gay but the vast majority of gay men where repeatedly molested as children. It is the primary contributing factor. Also, the vast majority of child molestation is committed by men against boys (i.e. it is homosexual in nature).

    Thus, if homosexuality was re-criminalized and punished according to the principles of justice (i.e. if homosexuals were executed upon conviction) you'd not only rid the society of homosexuality but of child molestation as well. You'd solve both the problem and it's primary cause.

    To be honest, I don't believe that it is legal in the US. I understand that people might think that it is legal in the US.
    Well, your belief doesn't come into it. The fact is that it is not only legal to be homosexual, it is legal for them to get married and enjoy all the societal benefits thereof.

    It is immoral, and a person may die if they commit homosexual acts.
    A person may die for driving their car too fast or for smoking cigarettes or eating too many cheeseburgers.

    Yes, we have a complete legal system in the Torah. The Law. I can see how people have a view of politics that is unacceptable. I am not well versed in how to describe this though. Suffice it to say people are not really serious with God.
    Well, you said a mouth full there!

    Even the ones who are serious about God are serious about hating Him and anything that has to do with Him or justice or morality. If you notice, much, if not most, of liberalism is about making society such that people can be sexually immoral without consequence. Homosexuality - legal. Adultery - legal. Fornication - legal. Pornography - legal. Killing unwanted babies - legal. Child molestation is still illegal but the so called "age of consent" continues to be lowered by liberals. Even the average convicted rapist only spends less than five years in prison.

    This county (the whole world really) has forgotten what justice looks like so long ago that it looks like barbarism to most people! Almost no one has any idea what justice looks like and would be appalled to hear someone describe it. Think of that! God, the only God that actually exists, who's character defines what is right and just looks to the average liberal like a totally uncivilized barbarian. It's no wonder they hate Him so much.

    Clete
    Last edited by Clete; April 27th, 2019 at 05:40 AM.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    So people do not have the right to not believe in God?
    They have the legal right but not the moral right.

    iow, people deserve to be harassed, forced, imprisoned, coerced, etc., by police /government, for not believing in God?
    No, of course not.

    The distinction has to do with the difference between sin and crime. If the law is just then all crimes are sin but not all sin is criminal. The governing official is not there to enforce morality in general but rather criminal justice specifically.

    However, just because a behavior is not criminal doesn't mean that it must be accepted and tolerated by others. The social stigmatization of immoral behavior of any stripe is a good thing. Just because it is legal to be foul mouthed, for example, doesn't mean that I am required to hire a vulgar man or to otherwise do business with him or to even be around him for that matter.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    I meant between consenting adults obviously, not animals or kids or something like that.
    You argue against yourself!

    You guys are trying to impose a morality in the form of a law and you cannot do that in our society.
    If not morality, on what basis would you make a laws against sex with animals or kids?

    I assume you want to criminalize sodomy. Will you arrest a man and a woman who have sodomy too?
    There is no need to make any assumptions. Read the opening post. It is really clear.

    Gay marriage is the problem. THAT should never have been legalized. But if two adults want to have weird sex that is nobody's business but their own.
    On what planet could you have the former without the later?

    See the point? You argue against yourself again!

    The fact is that it does effect others! Not only does it serve to degrade the moral base of society (not the least of which is the single family unit, by the way) but when you lower standards of morality in one place it is lowered in every place because there is one standard of morality - ONE - and only one. To have a lower a moral standard is to have an immoral standard and when your standard of morality is immoral then where can it possibly stop but with the end of the civilization and death on every side?


    Clete
    Last edited by Clete; April 27th, 2019 at 04:54 AM.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    People are free to have sex however they want to.
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    No, they're not
    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    I meant between consenting adults obviously, not animals or kids or something like that.
    yes, bestiality and pedophilia are two ways in which we, as a society, have chosen to regulate people's sexual behavior

    before our society was destroyed by those mindlessly bleating "consenting adults! consenting adults!" we also regulated pornography, adultery, divorce and, yes, homosexuality

    You guys are trying to impose a morality in the form of a law and you cannot do that in our society.
    of course we can and do

    unless you can come up with a law that is not based on morality?


    answer: you can't

    all law is based on morality

    the question today is - on whose morality should we choose to base civil law?

    God's or hollywood's?

    I assume you want to criminalize sodomy.
    between a man and another man

    or a woman and another woman

    Will you arrest a man and a woman who have sodomy too?
    if they're not married?

    you bet

    Gay marriage is the problem. THAT should never have been legalized.
    no, marriage should never have been allowed by the churches to be co-opted by the state

    what we have now is two marriage systems - one in the church, more or less faithful to the Word of God


    and a civil marriage system, corrupted and vulnerable to the whims of public opinion



    But if two adults want to have weird sex that is nobody's business but their own.
    if a father wants to sexually molest his ten year old daughter with her consent, in what way is that your business?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    .....of course we can and do

    unless you can come up with a law that is not based on morality?

    answer: you can't.....

    Sure I can.

    Entering Into Contracts, which is the basis of our society. A contract is neither moral nor immoral. It is an agreement between two parties.

    MURDER: While murder may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it deprives me of my rights, notably my right to life.

    Same goes for RAPE: While rape may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it is a physical assault on another person, causing bodily harm and damage.

    Same with THEFT. It is illegal because you are stealing my property and thus depriving me of my right to property ownership, not because it is immoral

    Just because many laws deal with immoral acts, their morality is not the reason for their illegality.

    Anal sex between a man and a woman is consensual and does not deprive them of their rights. Your attempt to make it illegal is based on morality ONLY and you cannot do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    Sure I can.

    Entering Into Contracts, which is the basis of our society.
    If a man makes a vow to the Lord, or swears an oath to bind himself by some agreement, he shall not break his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth. - Numbers 30:2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...2&version=NKJV

    Seems like a moral issue to me...

    A contract is neither moral nor immoral. It is an agreement between two parties.
    How does this ^^^
    |
    Have anything to do with this vvv

    MURDER: While murder may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it deprives me of my rights, notably my right to life.

    Same goes for RAPE: While rape may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it is a physical assault on another person, causing bodily harm and damage.

    Same with THEFT. It is illegal because you are stealing my property, not because it is immoral

    Just because many laws deal with immoral acts, their morality is not the reason for their illegality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    Sure I can.

    Entering Into Contracts, which is the basis of our society. A contract is neither moral nor immoral. It is an agreement between two parties.

    MURDER: While murder may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it deprives me of my rights, notably my right to life.

    Same goes for RAPE: While rape may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it is a physical assault on another person, causing bodily harm and damage.

    Same with THEFT. It is illegal because you are stealing my property and thus depriving me of my right to property ownership, not because it is immoral




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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Many people are under the mistaken assumption that Homosexuality is not against the Law. However, in the Law of Moses we find that it is against the Law.

    Genesis 18:20-19:29 is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 are against Homosexuality.

    Leviticus 18:22 NASB - 'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13 NASB - 'If [there is] a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

    Romans 1:18-32 affirms that those who practice homosexuality are worthy of death.

    Romans 1:18-32 NASB - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; [they are] gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11 shows for believers that some used to be homosexuals.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NASB - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor [the] covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

    1 Timothy 1:8-10 affirms that the Law is for those who practice homosexuality.

    1 Timothy 1:8-10 NASB - But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

    Therefore I conclude that homosexuality is bad and wrong, and that those who practice it are worthy of death, but that you can repent and not practice it any more.
    Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

    The Bible is also quite explicit as to the punishment that awaits those children that "curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death" - but I don't see conservative Christians demanding that this Mosaic law be enacted!

    Could it be that they are also in the habit of "cherry picking" as to which Biblical verses they wish to adhere - and those they choose to ignore?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    Sure I can.

    Entering Into Contracts, which is the basis of our society. A contract is neither moral nor immoral. It is an agreement between two parties.
    Contract law is based on the implication that one is to honor their obligations; that it is wrong (i.e. immoral) to violate a contract.

    MURDER: While murder may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it deprives me of my rights, notably my right to life.
    How can you not see that you are arguing against yourself?

    You just said in one sentence that it's not based on morality and then in the very next you imply that it is wrong (i.e. immoral) to deprive you of your RIGHT to life.

    All of morality is based on life. That which is proper to life is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil.

    Proverbs 11:19 As righteousness leads to life, So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death.

    Same goes for RAPE: While rape may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it is a physical assault on another person, causing bodily harm and damage.
    Once again, your implication is that it is wrong to "assault another person, causing bodily harm and damage."

    Same with THEFT. It is illegal because you are stealing my property and thus depriving me of my right to property ownership, not because it is immoral
    The right to private property is merely an extention of the right to life, as are all rights.

    "The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave." - Ayn Rand

    Just because many laws deal with immoral acts, their morality is not the reason for their illegality.
    You have unwittingly proven otherwise by your own words.

    Anal sex between a man and a woman is consensual and does not deprive them of their rights. Your attempt to make it illegal is based on morality ONLY and you cannot do that.
    God directly disagrees with you. He did not tell Israel that homosexuality (regardless of what sort of sex they engaged in) was merely sinfull but that it was to be criminally procecuted and those found guilty were to be put to death.

    Is it your position that God is unjust?

    Clete

    P.S. I know that your post was in response to Ok Doser but I just couldn't resist typing a response myself. It's not my intent to "pile on" or whatever. It's just that this topic is rarely engaged on such a philosophical level, plus you seem more resonable than average and so I just cannot resist putting in my two cents.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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