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Thread: What the Law and the Bible say about Homosexuality.

  1. #16
    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    Okay, but I am asking: How does you post relate to politics?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Homosexuality is to be discussed in the Politics Forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    What has that got to do with politics?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    In that homosexuality is discussed in politics. For example, recriminalization or decriminalization. I take neither of these approaches.
    My understanding is that you have read the Opening Post. Homosexuality is under Politics when you read what is to be in Politics as a Forum. Does that answer your question? I believe that homosexuality is against God's Law. As such, no one should say that it is not against the Law. Further, to make it not against the Law is not a valid approach when dealing with God's Law.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Homosexuality is to be discussed in the Politics Forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    not sure that's true
    Okay. But why not? It is listed as one of the things to talk about in the Politics Forum.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    So, gay people are allowed to live without fear of not being allowed to breathe because of politics?

    Oh, good for "politics" then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I meant to say that homosexuality is under Politics.

    Do you believe that politics somehow allows homosexuality to exist? It is not religion but we learn about God's Law against it from God.
    There was a need to clarify what I meant, that homosexuality is under Politics, rather than saying my post is under Politics, which it is.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I meant to say that homosexuality is under Politics.
    I think you did say that, its just that it didn't feel like you had really hit the nail on the head in regards to answering the question about why it belongs under politics so I thought I'd throw in my two cents. It wasn't my intent to correct you, just to augment what you had said.

    Do you believe that politics somehow allows homosexuality to exist?
    If by politics we mean the popular opinion of the population at a large then yes, it is the only thing that permits it to exist within a society to any significant degree and certainly as merely an "alternative life style" rather than as the capital crime that it actually is.

    It is not religion but we learn about God's Law against it from God.
    We do learn about it from God, no doubt, as your opening post makes very clear, but divine revelation isn't necessary to understand that it is immoral. Homosexuality (and other forms of sexual immorality) lead to death from a dozen different directions. If that which leads to life and the enrichment of it is the good, then there is but one conclusion to be drawn about the moral nature of things like adultry, rape, molestation and homosexuality.

    Clete
    Last edited by Clete; April 27th, 2019 at 04:51 AM.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    So, gay people are allowed to live without fear of not being allowed to breathe because of politics?

    Oh, good for "politics" then.
    Your god is politics and the state.

    Good luck with that.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    My understanding is that you have read the Opening Post. Homosexuality is under Politics when you read what is to be in Politics as a Forum. Does that answer your question? I believe that homosexuality is against God's Law. As such, no one should say that it is not against the Law. Further, to make it not against the Law is not a valid approach when dealing with God's Law.
    Jacob,

    You clearly see that homosexuality is against the Mosaic Law and you state that you believe it is "bad and wrong" (i.e. immoral) and that those who practice it are worthy of death.

    Do you understand that when Moses and Paul say that such people are worthy of death, that they mean that such people deserve to be executed by the government? It isn't talking merely about a condition of spiritual unfitness or separation from God or some other spiritual condition. The bible directly advocates that homosexuality should be considered a capital crime and that the government should enforce such a law and that any government that does not do so is unjust.

    In short, do you agree that Christians should advocate the criminalization of homosexuality as well as the execution of anyone convicted of the crime?

    Also, remember when discussing this with unbelievers that you're likely talking with someone who is a legal positivist. Meaning that they think that whatever is legal is also moral and that therefore since homosexuality is legal in the U.S. that it is not immoral to commit homosexual acts. They do not care about what the bible says about it. That's why the confusion about how your opening post fits into politics. They think that the bible is entirely a religious book and have no idea that God put a complete legal justice system in the bible and don't care. They think that politics is the pervue of popular opinion, not objective morality.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    What has that got to do with politics?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    In that homosexuality is discussed in politics. For example, recriminalization or decriminalization. I take neither of these approaches.
    Criminalization is ridiculous. These people suffer from a mental issue. How can we criminalize that?

    "All aboard the Trump Train. Next stop, Victory Station, 2020!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    Criminalization is ridiculous. These people suffer from a mental issue. How can we criminalize that?

    you criminilize the actions, not the disease, same as when a schizophrenic shoots somebody

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    What about the approach you mention has anything to do with how we are to act and behave? That is, the just power to force, harass, pressure, and coerce people is not of God and you ask if it is okay when it is to obey God. I mean, certainly we are to obey God. But what is the best approach to teach people to obey God? And what do we do if people do not do so? Is that the best approach do you think?
    Jacob, that's what I asked you. Do you believe that people possess the inalienable right to not be harassed, forced, pressured, coerced, etc., by police /government, for disobeying God?
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    people obviously do not have the right to disobey the God from whom their rights eminate.
    So people do not have the right to not believe in God? iow, people deserve to be harassed, forced, imprisoned, coerced, etc., by police /government, for not believing in God?
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    Criminalization is ridiculous. These people suffer from a mental issue. How can we criminalize that?
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    you criminilize the actions, not the disease, same as when a schizophrenic shoots somebody
    And what action exactly would you criminalize? People are free to have sex however they want to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumpTrainCA View Post
    People are free to have sex however they want to.
    No, they're not

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    No, they're not
    I meant between consenting adults obviously, not animals or kids or something like that.

    You guys are trying to impose a morality in the form of a law and you cannot do that in our society.

    I assume you want to criminalize sodomy. Will you arrest a man and a woman who have sodomy too?

    Gay marriage is the problem. THAT should never have been legalized. But if two adults want to have weird sex that is nobody's business but their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I think you did say that, its just that it didn't feel like you had really hit the nail on the head in regards to answering the question about why it belongs under politics so I thought I'd throw in my two cents. It wasn't my intent to correct you, just to ogment what you had said.
    Thank you. Yes, it did augment what I had said.
    If by politics we mean the popular opinion of the population at a large then yes, it is the only thing that permits it to exist within a society to any significant degree and certainly as merely an "alternative life style" rather than as the capital crime that it actually is.
    Right.
    We do learn about it from God, no doubt, as your opening post makes very clear, but divine revelation isn't necessary to understand that it is immoral. Homosexuality (and other forms of sexual immorality) lead to death from a dozen different directions. If that which leads to life and the enrichment of it is the good, then there is but one conclusion to be drawn about the moral nature of things like adultry, rape, molestation and homosexuality.

    Clete
    Amen. Sounds good Clete.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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  24. #30
    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Jacob,

    You clearly see that homosexuality is against the Mosaic Law and you state that you believe it is "bad and wrong" (i.e. immoral) and that those who practice it are worthy of death.

    Do you understand that when Moses and Paul say that such people are worthy of death, that they mean that such people deserve to be executed by the government? It isn't talking merely about a condition of spiritual unfitness or separation from God or some other spiritual condition. The bible directly advocates that homosexuality should be considered a capital crime and that the government should enforce such a law and that any government that does not do so is unjust.

    In short, do you agree that Christians should advocate the criminalization of homosexuality as well as the execution of anyone convicted of the crime?

    Also, remember when discussing this with unbelievers that you're likely talking with someone who is a legal positivist. Meaning that they think that whatever is legal is also moral and that therefore since homosexuality is legal in the U.S. that it is not immoral to commit homosexual acts. They do not care about what the bible says about it. That's why the confusion about how your opening post fits into politics. They think that the bible is entirely a religious book and have no idea that God put a complete legal justice system in the bible and don't care. They think that politics is the pervue of popular opinion, not objective morality.

    Clete
    Is the criminalization of homosexuality a making it criminal? Because it already is criminal. Recriminalization would make it criminal again. Decriminalization would make it so that it is no longer criminal.

    Yes, not only are people worthy of death but some may die because of it, whether by the hands of the state or by a judge and individuals involved with the execution, according to Torah Law that is. It is a capital crime and not enforcing it may be unjust. If someone caused another person's homosexuality that is a more difficult situation. But it needs to be dealt with, and repentance must be available even then and even so. To be honest, I don't believe that it is legal in the US. I understand that people might think that it is legal in the US. It is immoral, and a person may die if they commit homosexual acts. Yes, we have a complete legal system in the Torah. The Law. I can see how people have a view of politics that is unacceptable. I am not well versed in how to describe this though. Suffice it to say people are not really serious with God.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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