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Thread: Is the Law of Moses good or bad?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post

    Strong's g2372

    - Lexical: θυμός
    - Transliteration: thumos
    - Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    - Phonetic Spelling: thoo-mos'
    - Definition: an outburst of passion, wrath.
    - Origin: From thuo; passion (as if breathing hard).
    - Usage: fierceness, indignation, wrath. Compare psuche.
    - Translated as (count): wrath (6), anger (4), fury (3), fits of rage (1), of rage (1), passion (1), rage (1), with anger (1).

    In other words, Paul isn't talking about the wrath of God upon the wicked, but the exact thing Christ warned about, being "angry without cause."
    Ok, so we agree that wrath in this passage means anger. Anger can have many levels from mild irritation to fits of uncontrollable rage. But whatever, we can let distinction sit for time being.


    Good thing he doesn't consider being angry a sin then, eh?

    Pretty clever. Very slyly played. No....I’m not willing to concede that point just yet. I will admit that you could stick in some counter bible to make the opposite point, as you have already begun to do, and as can be done with nearly any bible topic....but no. I will argue my case further.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    I think he did fine all the way through from a Christian perspective. You don’t because you don’t like what Jesus said about not defending yourself.
    Once again, you show your lack of knowledge on the subject.

    It seems right to kill another if they are trying to kill you or your family.
    There's certainly nothing wrong with it.

    But that’s not what Jesus said.
    Have you forgotten that Jesus (who is God) is the one who gave Moses the laws written in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy?

    Apparently you have.

    So, like so many Christians who claim to believe the Bible, what you really do is pick and choose the parts you like and believe those, but the ones you don’t like you skip.
    Says the one ignoring what was written in The Law.



    Would that be a fair assessment in your opinion?


    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Ok, so we agree that wrath in this passage means anger. Anger can have many levels from mild irritation to fits of uncontrollable rage. But whatever, we can let distinction sit for time being.
    Considering that the passage is speaking of "fits of rage," and not "God's wrath upon the wicked, it's a necessary distinction to make.

    God's wrath is not a "fit of rage." It's righteous judgment upon the wicked.

    Pretty clever. Very slyly played. No....I’m not willing to concede that point just yet. I will admit that you could stick in some counter bible to make the opposite point, as you have already begun to do,
    Counter Bible? What's that?

    and as can be done with nearly any bible topic....but no. I will argue my case further.
    Not sure how, considering that the Bible says killing people who should not die and keeping people alive who should not live are both wrong.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Once again, you show your lack of knowledge on the subject.
    My knowledge of the Bible is complete.

    There's certainly nothing wrong with it.
    Not unless disobeying Jesus is problematic. Which, apparently is commonly done among Christian type believers.

    Have you forgotten that Jesus (who is God) is the one who gave Moses the laws written in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy?

    Apparently you have.
    I don't think he did. In Jeremiah, we find that lying scribes wrote some of the bible. Professional bible scholars have demonstrated that the OT has been edited by unnamed editors and this can be easily verified by anyone willing to do a little research.

    Jesus disagreed with the Laws of Moses in several places, claiming that it wasn't to be done by Christians. Firstly, Jesus said divorce was wrong and shouldn't be done.

    Secondly, he said Christians are supposed to be meek and peacemakers. He said it is the peacemakers who are the sons of God.

    "Matthew 5:9
    Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God."

    He said an eye for an eye was BS. And that should be embraced by everyone as I have already shown that the "eye for an eye" was taken directly from the Code of Hammurabi which is the oldest or one of oldest of all known laws, and it was written by the Babylonians. But, do you accept that it was Hammurabi and not God who wrote that one?

    Matthew 5 Again.

    "“You have heard that it was said to those [d]of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother [e]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment."

    "You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away."

    Says the one ignoring what was written in The Law.
    No, I'm actually highlighting what was written in the Law in this thread.

    Considering that the passage is speaking of "fits of rage," and not "God's wrath upon the wicked, it's a necessary distinction to make.

    God's wrath is not a "fit of rage." It's righteous judgment upon the wicked.
    I've already agreed with you on the first point, and I disagree on the second point.


    Counter Bible? What's that?
    The topic of another thread? This thread is about the Law of Moses, and whether it be good or bad.

    If I decide to make the thread, based on this conversation; what I will demonstrate clearly, and without controversy, is that for any given bible doctrine, the opposite or contradictory position can be offered. In other words, the bible itself says different things about the same things, almost all the time. I can show it, and there would be no reasonable arguments with respect to this fact as the bible exists currently.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Jesus disagreed with the Laws of Moses in several places, claiming that it wasn't to be done by Christians. Firstly, Jesus said divorce was wrong and shouldn't be done.
    I can tell you that Jesus did not disagree with the Law, though He may have disagreed with people's interpretation of it. It is my belief that Jesus observed and taught the Law. As for divorce he said that it is wrong except for the reason of sexual immorality, because it makes people commit adultery.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I can tell you that Jesus did not disagree with the Law, though He may have disagreed with people's interpretation of it. It is my belief that Jesus observed and taught the Law. As for divorce he said that it is wrong except for the reason of sexual immorality, because it makes people commit adultery.
    Did Jesus allow his disciples to pick food and eat it on the Sabbath?

    Did Jesus himself state that it was lawful to violate the Sabbath in order to save an animal?
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Did Jesus allow his disciples to pick food and eat it on the Sabbath?

    Did Jesus himself state that it was lawful to violate the Sabbath in order to save an animal?
    They could eat on the Sabbath and it is okay to save an animal on the Sabbath.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    They could eat on the Sabbath and it is okay to save an animal on the Sabbath.
    Right. So, it is OK to do some work on the Sabbath. Which makes sense, duh. People die if they don’t eat and drink. Animals or children, or any other person who needs help should be helped Sabbath or not. Jesus and God agreed with this point in the parable of the Good Samaritan.

    Yet, the Bible says that God told Moses to kill a man for gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. Are you familiar with that passage?

    I’ll assume you are since you observe the Sabbath.

    You know what I find wrong about that? Everything. But to be specific, there is actually a blood sacrifice that can be performed to forgive that according to the same law of Moses. Are you familiar with that sacrifice to cleanse that sin?
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Yet, the Bible says that God told Moses to kill a man for gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. Are you familiar with that passage?

    I’ll assume you are since you observe the Sabbath.

    You know what I find wrong about that? Everything. But to be specific, there is actually a blood sacrifice that can be performed to forgive that according to the same law of Moses. Are you familiar with that sacrifice to cleanse that sin?
    Feel free to share. I do not know how to proceed.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Feel free to share. I do not know how to proceed.
    I’m asking you if you are familiar with the blood sacrifice the Ot requires for the violation of the Sabbath, if a person wishes to live instead of be stoned to death?

    Since you said you were considering becoming a Levite Priest, I thought you may know that one.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    I’m asking you if you are familiar with the blood sacrifice the Ot requires for the violation of the Sabbath, if a person wishes to live instead of be stoned to death?

    Since you said you were considering becoming a Levite Priest, I thought you may know that one.
    I chose the tribe of Levi if that is possible. I have thought of myself as a Levitical Priest, partly because of that decision. But I am not locked into it, mostly because it sounds crazy. Teaching or a Rabbi, but call no man Rabbi.

    I am actually wanting to see your scripture for this. However, I need not test you. If you want me to do the looking I can. I will find the scripture if it exists.

    Numbers 15:32-36



    Numbers 15:32-36 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Penalty for Violating the Sabbath
    32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.

    35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

    New King James Version (NKJV)
    Scripture taken from the New King James Version®. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson. Used by permission. All rights reserved.


    Is there a part about a sacrifice?
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    My knowledge of the Bible is complete.


    I doubt that very much.

    Not unless disobeying Jesus is problematic. Which, apparently is commonly done among Christian type believers.
    Jesus is not inconsistent with Himself.

    See the question at the end of this post.

    I don't think he did.
    What you think is irrelevant.

    The Bible was written by about 40 authors over a period of about 1650 years.

    That's a fact.

    In Jeremiah, we find that lying scribes wrote some of the bible.
    Reference please.

    Professional bible scholars have demonstrated that the OT has been edited by unnamed editors and this can be easily verified by anyone willing to do a little research.
    Which parts? And when were they edited?

    Because if you compare the Dead Sea Scrolls (written around 150 B.C, and discovered in 1946) with the modern versions of the Old Testament, they are, for all intents and purposes, identical, with variations on the spelling of words and different phrasing, but the message remains the same.

    Jesus disagreed with the Laws of Moses in several places,
    References, please.

    Saying it doesn't make it so.

    claiming that it wasn't to be done by Christians.
    The term Christian applies to believers who came after Paul, in the manner of Paul.

    In other words, there was no such thing as a Christian during Jesus' time on earth. Ergo, He couldn't have claimed what you are saying.

    Firstly, Jesus said divorce was wrong and shouldn't be done.
    No, He said that marriage between a man and a woman was intended to last forever, BUT that it was allowed only for reasons of sexual immorality.

    Secondly, he said Christians are supposed to be meek and peacemakers. He said it is the peacemakers who are the sons of God.

    "Matthew 5:9
    Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God."
    You seem to have the terms "peacemaker" and "pacifist" confused.

    A pacifist is one who does not want any conflict of any kind, even if it means that they themselves will be subjugated to tyranny.

    A peacemaker is one who acknowledges that some conflict is necessary, and that peace will not come about by disarmament.

    He said an eye for an eye was BS.
    First of all, You're on a Christian board. Please do not be vulgar when attributing things to God.

    Second, not only did He not rebut "eye for an eye" punishments, but He reaffirmed them.

    He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”—then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ” - Matthew 15:3-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...9&version=NKJV

    And that should be embraced by everyone as I have already shown that the "eye for an eye" was taken directly from the Code of Hammurabi
    Please provide the post number where you did this.

    which is the oldest or one of oldest of all known laws, and it was written by the Babylonians.
    The Babylonians got it from the Israelites.

    But, do you accept that it was Hammurabi and not God who wrote that one?
    Nope.

    Matthew 5 Again.

    "“You have heard that it was said to those [d]of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother [e]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment."

    "You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away."
    And?

    Show us how that goes against what was given to Moses.

    No, I'm actually highlighting what was written in the Law in this thread.
    Yet you have yet to show us where Jesus contradicted the Law.

    I've already agreed with you on the first point, and I disagree on the second point.
    But you haven't shown us why...

    The topic of another thread?
    I didn't think answering a simple question would necessitate another thread...

    This thread is about the Law of Moses, and whether it be good or bad.
    Duh.

    If I decide to make the thread, based on this conversation; what I will demonstrate clearly, and without controversy, is that for any given bible doctrine, the opposite or contradictory position can be offered.
    So, you'd be affirming my position, that God gives different instructions to different people at different times?

    Go right ahead.

    In other words, the bible itself says different things about the same things, almost all the time.
    Except when it comes to morality.

    On that, the Bible is very clear.

    I can show it,
    Already been done.

    Check out "The Plot: An Overview of the Bible" by Pastor Bob Enyart.

    and there would be no reasonable arguments with respect to this fact as the bible exists currently.
    Again, if your argument is that God tells different people at different times to do different things, then I agree.

    If your argument, however, is that morality is arbitrary, then I disagree, and posit that morality is absolute, and I question (yet again) your knowledge of what the Bible says.

    ----

    Oh, by the way, would you mind answering this question? I'd appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    So, it's the middle of the night, your wife and three kids are asleep, and you wake up and hear noises coming from your kitchen. Someone has broken in and is in the process of foraging through your house for valuables. Do you get out your gun? Or do you go and have a conversation with the burglar?

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    Also, there is a difference when saying animal sacrifice or blood sacrifice. There is something about blood that we are to stay away from. It may just be in how something is said or thought of, and if it is not of God.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post


    I doubt that very much.
    As well you should. Why would a person withhold from themselves the right to doubt anything that hasn’t been shown to be true?

    Only because of religious fear.

    “Doubting Thomas?” Poor old Tom....huh? You’d think he was Hitler the way some people see it.

    IDK, I’m going back here....but it seems like there is a DC Talk verse that talks about God being bigger than my doubts...or maybe it was Switchfoot. Can’t remember.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    In the Law of Moses, a woman, or a man being found to have committed adultery was to be stoned to death.

    But, in the New Testament, Jesus himself disagreed with that practice. Instead, he is said to have forgiven the woman who committed that crime, and is never recorded as having spoken to the man who was guilty of this crime.

    What do you think about this fact?
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    In the Law of Moses, a woman, or a man being found to have committed adultery was to be stoned to death.

    But, in the New Testament, Jesus himself disagreed with that practice. Instead, he is said to have forgiven the woman who committed that crime, and is never recorded as having spoken to the man who was guilty of this crime.

    What do you think about this fact?
    Me? Or anyone? Or the last person you posted to?

    I believe that there may still be a death penalty, but that Jesus did forgive her. Would there need to be two witnesses? Remember, it was he who is without sin cast the first stone. Only Jesus could have.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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