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Thread: Salvation is a matter of knowing & being known by God, not believing in God

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    There is no favoritism with God. He won't damn people that never even heard the Gospel. He won't damn people who heard it but rejected it because it came from the mouths of hateful bigots, crusaders, conquerors, etc. He won't damn them because they were unconvinced.
    I am uncertain of what you are saying here.
    No, faith is a gift - for no one comes to God unless he calls them. It is not the presence or absence of such a call that determines if one is saved or not. Or do you believe that all Native Americans, prior to the settlement of Christian Conquerors, are damned because they never learned of the one true God?
    We can keep learning the truth, and have learned it, but when we consider a question like this does it take away from the necessity of sharing the gospel with others? Are you saying we just need to consider that no one who has not accepted the gospel has yet to be saved? Or are you saying that not hearing it does not bring about punishment for something they haven't even heard or understood yet?
    No - that is favoritism, a sin. God looks not at our stated beliefs, but at our hearts and at our deeds.
    We need to share the gospel. It is possible that people would not know the truth because we have not shared it with them.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Over 1000 post club csuguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I am uncertain of what you are saying here.
    There are people who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel and believe, or people who heard the gospel from wicked men/women, etc. Look at the Native Americans prior the Christian conquerors settling here, the African American slaves owned by white Christians, etc. God shows no favoritism - and thus he won't condemn those who never had the opportunity to believe, or who experienced the faith through such evils as slavery and conquest.

    If you maintain that holding the correct beliefs is what gets one into heaven, then you are saying that God is showing favoritism towards all those who were in a place and time to hear and receive the gospel. Born into a Christian family? BAM - your saved. Born into a Muslim family? BAM - your damned. No - that isn't how God works.

    The scriptures consistently tell us that God judges our deeds and our hearts - not our doctrine.

    Are you saying we just need to consider that no one who has not accepted the gospel has yet to be saved? Or are you saying that not hearing it does not bring about punishment for something they haven't even heard or understood yet?
    I'm saying that a mere mental belief in God and the gospel is meaningless in of itself and cannot save you. Additionally, if one did not receive the gospel, but lived their life doing good - their reward is not lost. For salvation isn't determined by a list of doctrines.


    James 2:14-20 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [n]that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [o]be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is [p]dead, being by itself.

    18 But someone [q]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that [r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

    We need to share the gospel. It is possible that people would not know the truth because we have not shared it with them.
    Yes, as Christians it is our job to share the gospel and to teach others to obey the commandments, to do what is right.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    There are people who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel and believe, or people who heard the gospel from wicked men/women, etc. Look at the Native Americans prior the Christian conquerors settling here, the African American slaves owned by white Christians, etc. God shows no favoritism - and thus he won't condemn those who never had the opportunity to believe, or who experienced the faith through such evils as slavery and conquest.

    If you maintain that holding the correct beliefs is what gets one into heaven, then you are saying that God is showing favoritism towards all those who were in a place and time to hear and receive the gospel. Born into a Christian family? BAM - your saved. Born into a Muslim family? BAM - your damned. No - that isn't how God works.

    The scriptures consistently tell us that God judges our deeds and our hearts - not our doctrine.



    I'm saying that a mere mental belief in God and the gospel is meaningless in of itself and cannot save you. Additionally, if one did not receive the gospel, but lived their life doing good - their reward is not lost. For salvation isn't determined by a list of doctrines.


    James 2:14-20 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [n]that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [o]be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is [p]dead, being by itself.

    18 But someone [q]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that [r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?



    Yes, as Christians it is our job to share the gospel and to teach others to obey the commandments, to do what is right.
    Sounds good. Belief in God and beliefs about God or about your faith might be different, knowing that belief is different from beliefs.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Your misinterpretation is opposed to the idea that salvation is by faith in Christ, as the scriptures testify.

    "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" Acts 16:30,31

    Ro 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
    Ro 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
    Ro 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
    Ga 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    There is no favoritism with God. He won't damn people that never even heard the Gospel. He won't damn people who heard it but rejected it because it came from the mouths of hateful bigots, crusaders, conquerors, etc. He won't damn them because they were unconvinced.

    No, faith is a gift - for no one comes to God unless he calls them. It is not the presence or absence of such a call that determines if one is saved or not. Or do you believe that all Native Americans, prior to the settlement of Christian Conquerors, are damned because they never learned of the one true God?

    No - that is favoritism, a sin. God looks not at our stated beliefs, but at our hearts and at our deeds.
    Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

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