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Thread: Salvation is a matter of knowing & being known by God, not believing in God

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    There is no favoritism with God. He won't damn people that never even heard the Gospel. He won't damn people who heard it but rejected it because it came from the mouths of hateful bigots, crusaders, conquerors, etc. He won't damn them because they were unconvinced.
    I am uncertain of what you are saying here.
    No, faith is a gift - for no one comes to God unless he calls them. It is not the presence or absence of such a call that determines if one is saved or not. Or do you believe that all Native Americans, prior to the settlement of Christian Conquerors, are damned because they never learned of the one true God?
    We can keep learning the truth, and have learned it, but when we consider a question like this does it take away from the necessity of sharing the gospel with others? Are you saying we just need to consider that no one who has not accepted the gospel has yet to be saved? Or are you saying that not hearing it does not bring about punishment for something they haven't even heard or understood yet?
    No - that is favoritism, a sin. God looks not at our stated beliefs, but at our hearts and at our deeds.
    We need to share the gospel. It is possible that people would not know the truth because we have not shared it with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I am uncertain of what you are saying here.
    There are people who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel and believe, or people who heard the gospel from wicked men/women, etc. Look at the Native Americans prior the Christian conquerors settling here, the African American slaves owned by white Christians, etc. God shows no favoritism - and thus he won't condemn those who never had the opportunity to believe, or who experienced the faith through such evils as slavery and conquest.

    If you maintain that holding the correct beliefs is what gets one into heaven, then you are saying that God is showing favoritism towards all those who were in a place and time to hear and receive the gospel. Born into a Christian family? BAM - your saved. Born into a Muslim family? BAM - your damned. No - that isn't how God works.

    The scriptures consistently tell us that God judges our deeds and our hearts - not our doctrine.

    Are you saying we just need to consider that no one who has not accepted the gospel has yet to be saved? Or are you saying that not hearing it does not bring about punishment for something they haven't even heard or understood yet?
    I'm saying that a mere mental belief in God and the gospel is meaningless in of itself and cannot save you. Additionally, if one did not receive the gospel, but lived their life doing good - their reward is not lost. For salvation isn't determined by a list of doctrines.


    James 2:14-20 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [n]that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [o]be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is [p]dead, being by itself.

    18 But someone [q]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that [r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

    We need to share the gospel. It is possible that people would not know the truth because we have not shared it with them.
    Yes, as Christians it is our job to share the gospel and to teach others to obey the commandments, to do what is right.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    There are people who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel and believe, or people who heard the gospel from wicked men/women, etc. Look at the Native Americans prior the Christian conquerors settling here, the African American slaves owned by white Christians, etc. God shows no favoritism - and thus he won't condemn those who never had the opportunity to believe, or who experienced the faith through such evils as slavery and conquest.

    If you maintain that holding the correct beliefs is what gets one into heaven, then you are saying that God is showing favoritism towards all those who were in a place and time to hear and receive the gospel. Born into a Christian family? BAM - your saved. Born into a Muslim family? BAM - your damned. No - that isn't how God works.

    The scriptures consistently tell us that God judges our deeds and our hearts - not our doctrine.



    I'm saying that a mere mental belief in God and the gospel is meaningless in of itself and cannot save you. Additionally, if one did not receive the gospel, but lived their life doing good - their reward is not lost. For salvation isn't determined by a list of doctrines.


    James 2:14-20 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [n]that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [o]be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is [p]dead, being by itself.

    18 But someone [q]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that [r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?



    Yes, as Christians it is our job to share the gospel and to teach others to obey the commandments, to do what is right.
    Sounds good. Belief in God and beliefs about God or about your faith might be different, knowing that belief is different from beliefs.

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    Your misinterpretation is opposed to the idea that salvation is by faith in Christ, as the scriptures testify.

    "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" Acts 16:30,31

    Ro 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
    Ro 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
    Ro 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
    Ga 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    There is no favoritism with God. He won't damn people that never even heard the Gospel. He won't damn people who heard it but rejected it because it came from the mouths of hateful bigots, crusaders, conquerors, etc. He won't damn them because they were unconvinced.

    No, faith is a gift - for no one comes to God unless he calls them. It is not the presence or absence of such a call that determines if one is saved or not. Or do you believe that all Native Americans, prior to the settlement of Christian Conquerors, are damned because they never learned of the one true God?

    No - that is favoritism, a sin. God looks not at our stated beliefs, but at our hearts and at our deeds.
    Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcbsr View Post
    Your misinterpretation is opposed to the idea that salvation is by faith in Christ, as the scriptures testify.

    "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" Acts 16:30,31

    Ro 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
    Ro 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
    Ro 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
    Ga 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
    What you are doing here is called cherry picking. Try addressing the plethora of scriptures I've provided on the topic that clearly contradict you're misrepresentation of the scriptures.

    Where the scriptures don't make a differentiation between deeds and belief, that is because it is common sense that if you truly believe then you will act accordingly. And, for those foolish enough to think otherwise, there are scriptures calling you out as a fool.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    That is what the scriptures teach, and I have provided plenty of scriptural support.



    And which verses do you think detail how to know and be known by God here?
    2 Corinthians 5:17 Only a new creation can produce new works. It isn't 'do good works' but having been recreated, one known by God does 'naturally' new works.

    Matthew 7:23 has people who 'thought' they were known by Jesus, yet He told them plainly He never knew them. They had done 'good works' but not new-naturally. Only a spirit recreated in God is 'capable' of doing acts according to a new nature.

    It does no good at all to say 'emulate me' or 'emulate this/that apostle.' Rather, we need to have the Lord Jesus Christ's touch else all of it, every bit of it, is simply and nothing but old wine in old wineskins. We are ONLY capable of new-natured works, with a new nature recreated so. Ephesians 2:10 John 3:7
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    What you are doing here is called cherry picking. Try addressing the plethora of scriptures I've provided on the topic that clearly contradict you're misrepresentation of the scriptures.

    Where the scriptures don't make a differentiation between deeds and belief, that is because it is common sense that if you truly believe then you will act accordingly. And, for those foolish enough to think otherwise, there are scriptures calling you out as a fool.
    It is the difference of what you focus on and what another sees in scripture. Weigh, don't dismiss. Look to the timeline of the truth unfolding: The Jews had Deuteronomy, Christians have Matthew thru Revelation for instruction, and gentiles have specific books addressed to them as well. We are one in Christ, but not by instructions: Acts 15:28; 21:25 (clearly there is a separation in instructions).

    Because of this, it is essential that one read the Apostle to the gentiles and follow his instructions. In addition, as I've given above, it is essential that one understands that 'works' has one often putting the proverbial cart in front of the proverbial horse. You cannot 'do' good works for salvation, but rather MUST be a new creation in order to be a vessel for good works Ephesians 2:10 Anything else is whitewashed tombs doing whitewashed works that lead nowhere. John 3:7 is a must. 1 Corinthians 2:14 'cannot' It can't be done. One cannot insist on blood from a turnip nor good works from an unregenerate man, nor 'reborn' oneself. Only God is capable creating a new creation. With man, it is indeed impossible. Once God makes this clear to you, your theology understanding will change. Pray for it CSguy. You must/necessarily be recreated to grasp any of this.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    It is the difference of what you focus on and what another sees in scripture. Weigh, don't dismiss. Look to the timeline of the truth unfolding: The Jews had Deuteronomy, Christians have Matthew thru Revelation for instruction, and gentiles have specific books addressed to them as well. We are one in Christ, but not by instructions: Acts 15:28; 21:25 (clearly there is a separation in instructions).
    And this is exactly why Churchianity is so confused in the present day. If you try to take instructions for the body of Christ from, for example, Matthew through John you will be mixing apples and walruses.

    The vast majority of "the gospels" (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) are still teaching exactly the same things as Genesis through Malachi. We, the body of Christ, can learn from those things... but they are NOT doctrines for us to follow. On the day of Pentecost (a lawfully required feast day for Israel), Peter was NOT preaching to the body of Christ (as it has not even been established yet). He was preaching the fulfillment of prophecy for Israel and to Israel.

    The new testament is not even possible until the very end of those books (MMLJ). So they are actually just a continuation of all that God was doing to and through Israel. Peter makes this crystal clear in Act 1-8, but Churchianity has perverted the meaning of all of that with its mashed myths and scripture blending.

    Even just prior to His ascension, Jesus told the twelve apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel to teach the law of Moses.

    Mat 28:19-20 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    Those ALL THINGS THAT IS HAVE COMMANDED YOU included following the law of Moses.

    Mat 23:1-3 KJV Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, (2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

    This is so clear that it take complete blindness to believe otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Because of this, it is essential that one read the Apostle to the gentiles and follow his instructions.
    A hardy AMEN to that!
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    And this is exactly why Churchianity is so confused in the present day. If you try to take instructions for the body of Christ from, for example, Matthew through John you will be mixing apples and walruses.

    The vast majority of "the gospels" (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) are still teaching exactly the same things as Genesis through Malachi. We, the body of Christ, can learn from those things... but they are NOT doctrines for us to follow. On the day of Pentecost (a lawfully required feast day for Israel), Peter was NOT preaching to the body of Christ (as it has not even been established yet). He was preaching the fulfillment of prophecy for Israel and to Israel.

    The new testament is not even possible until the very end of those books (MMLJ). So they are actually just a continuation of all that God was doing to and through Israel. Peter makes this crystal clear in Act 1-8, but Churchianity has perverted the meaning of all of that with its mashed myths and scripture blending.

    Even just prior to His ascension, Jesus told the twelve apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel to teach the law of Moses.

    Mat 28:19-20 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    Those ALL THINGS THAT IS HAVE COMMANDED YOU included following the law of Moses.

    Mat 23:1-3 KJV Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, (2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

    This is so clear that it take complete blindness to believe otherwise.


    A hardy AMEN to that!
    Well, I could have used "Genesis through Revelation" as we have a complete book. I do realize that we divide the book differently but I'd suggest that Matthew Mark Luke and John tell you of your Savior whom you love. Direct application? I agree, you have to be careful to notice what is written to a Jew as well as notice what can be applied universally. For instance, I think it behooves all Christians regardless, to value loving the Lord with all our heart soul mind and strength. Possible? Yes 1 John 3:2, such is our hope.

    In a nutshell, while I acquiesce our difference (I'm not a Dispensationalist, though believe God works in dispensations an unfolding plan). The largest difference is our emphasis, we both recognize difference and sameness throughout scripture. Rather I focus on what is the same and Dispensationalists on what is different and it certainly does drive our theology proper.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Well, I could have used "Genesis through Revelation" as we have a complete book. I do realize that we divide the book differently but I'd suggest that Matthew Mark Luke and John tell you of your Savior whom you love. Direct application? I agree, you have to be careful to notice what is written to a Jew as well as notice what can be applied universally. For instance, I think it behooves all Christians regardless, to value loving the Lord with all our heart soul mind and strength. Possible? Yes 1 John 3:2, such is our hope.

    In a nutshell, while I acquiesce our difference (I'm not a Dispensationalist, though believe God works in dispensations an unfolding plan). The largest difference is our emphasis, we both recognize difference and sameness throughout scripture. Rather I focus on what is the same and Dispensationalists on what is different and it certainly does drive our theology proper.
    One of the main reasons that you see me focusing on differences is that modern Christianity tries to blur and blend so many things that it make a terrible mess of it.

    It tends to follow this pattern:
    • Completely ignore important differences.
    • See anything that is even remotely similar and call it identical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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