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Thread: Salvation is a matter of knowing & being known by God, not believing in God

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    Over 1000 post club csuguy's Avatar
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    Salvation is a matter of knowing & being known by God, not believing in God

    Often we are told that salvation comes from the faith - believe in doctrines x, y, and z and be saved. However this isn't accurate. While it is certainly good and important to believe in God - it is not a requirement of salvation. Rather, what is vital for salvation is to know & be known by God. These are two different things in scripture - knowing God vs believing in God.

    Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

    So then, how do we become known by God? Through loving-action, by doing what is right and good.

    1 Corinthians 8:3 But whoever loves God is known by God.

    1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

    1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

    1 John 4:16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

    1 John 4:21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

    1 John 5:2-3 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands

    Matthew 25:37-40 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

    This last verse, from the parable of the Sheep & Goats is particularly powerful. One can love God, and be known by God, even without realizing it. For God takes the good you do for others and credits it to us as if as though we did it for him. Likewise, when we abandon those in need, it is as if as though we abandoned the Lord himself.

    Proverbs 19:17 Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will reward them for what they have done.

    Proper belief can guide us, but ultimately it is our actions that define us before the Lord. Whether Christian, or Jew, or Atheist - all are equal before God. Being born into a believing family gives you no advantage - we must all individually choose to do good or evil. Thus even those not gifted with faith - and faith is a gift - can be saved.

    Romans 2:13-15 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
    Last edited by csuguy; April 3rd, 2019 at 12:34 AM.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    "So then, how do we become known by God? Through loving-action, by doing what is right and good".

    You were heading in the right direction until this statement.

    Read Ephesians 1:1-14 giving particular attention to verse 4 and 5.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    Over 1000 post club csuguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    "So then, how do we become known by God? Through loving-action, by doing what is right and good".

    You were heading in the right direction until this statement.
    That is what the scriptures teach, and I have provided plenty of scriptural support.

    Read Ephesians 1:1-14 giving particular attention to verse 4 and 5.
    And which verses do you think detail how to know and be known by God here?
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    That is what the scriptures teach, and I have provided plenty of scriptural support.



    And which verses do you think detail how to know and be known by God here?
    I have some difficulty believing you actually asked that question. The fact that you did means that you could neither understand nor accept the answer.

    You and I have different vocabularies.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    Over 1000 post club csuguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    I have some difficulty believing you actually asked that question. The fact that you did means that you could neither understand nor accept the answer.

    You and I have different vocabularies.
    LMAO, such non-sense. That was a very simple, straight-forward, relevant question and you go and jump behind platitudes. "If you were a TRUE believer, you would just know I'm right!"

    You emphasized v4-5 so here they are:
    just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [a]Him. In love 5 [b]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the [c]kind intention of His will,

    Nowhere does it discuss what it means to know God or to be known by God. It certainly doesn't address the wealth of scripture I already provided which you apparently reject.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    This message is hidden because csuguy is on your ignore list.

    The willfully ignorant and blatantly stupid deserve to be ignored.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    Over 1500 post club nikolai_42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    So then, how do we become known by God? Through loving-action, by doing what is right and good.
    I would have to agree with Truster - this statement is works salvation-oriented.

    We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
    Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
    He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
    In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
    Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
    Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
    No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

    I John 4:6-12

    John paints the picture of those that know God and those that don't. Those that know Him love the brethren - but at the heart of it is God's love predicating our love. And it is intertwined with those that hear John and his teaching (and agree with what the church held). It is a matter of identification, not prescription - he isn't saying that knowing God comes with our efforts to love Him. Rather...

    We love him, because he first loved us.
    I John 4:19

    Or should we say that if we want God to dwell in us we must FIRST love Him? If we can't say that, then we have to admit that the love is a marker - an indicator - of God's love in us and our being born of Him.

    He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

    I John 2:4-5

    This is even stronger - if our obedience puts us in Him, then we can point to our own obedience as the reason we are in Him (rather than the way we know we are in Him).

    If ye love me, keep my commandments.
    John 14:15

    ...and this is what Jesus said that seems to have prompted John to write what he did in I John 2:4-5 :

    He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    John 14:21

    So unless our love of God is an indicator - a fruit or a marker (so to speak) of our relationship with God - rather than that which we do to cause us to know Him - we must preach works salvation.

    THAT SAID...I believe this knowing Him is a progressive thing. But it all comes from Him and as we continue in Him, we grow in His love.

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
    John 17:3

    Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
    And be found in him
    , not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
    That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
    If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
    Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

    Philippians 3:8-12

    Paul, I believe, is saying that his life is being more and more conformed to Christ and he knows more of Christ and less of himself. More of Christ's love and less of his own. That seed was planted at conversion (I John 3:9) but it certainly has to grow. And all that attends that growth must be realized in his life as he presses on and does not look back - but perseveres to the end. That is lifelong - and goes well beyond simple acts of charity we may do to and for the brethren. It is ongoing change in us until we come into the maturity of the "perfect man" spoken of in Ephesians 4:13. That doesn't just include, but is centered in speaking the truth (doctrine) in love (the love of God being perfected in us). Growing up into Christ - the head - in all things.

    And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
    From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

    Ephesians 4:11-16
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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    Eph 2:4-10 KJV But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    Often we are told that salvation comes from the faith - believe in doctrines x, y, and z and be saved. However this isn't accurate. While it is certainly good and important to believe in God - it is not a requirement of salvation. Rather, what is vital for salvation is to know & be known by God. These are two different things in scripture - knowing God vs believing in God.

    Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

    So then, how do we become known by God? Through loving-action, by doing what is right and good.

    1 Corinthians 8:3 But whoever loves God is known by God.

    1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

    1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

    1 John 4:16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

    1 John 4:21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

    1 John 5:2-3 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands

    Matthew 25:37-40 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

    This last verse, from the parable of the Sheep & Goats is particularly powerful. One can love God, and be known by God, even without realizing it. For God takes the good you do for others and credits it to us as if as though we did it for him. Likewise, when we abandon those in need, it is as if as though we abandoned the Lord himself.

    Proverbs 19:17 Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will reward them for what they have done.

    Proper belief can guide us, but ultimately it is our actions that define us before the Lord. Whether Christian, or Jew, or Atheist - all are equal before God. Being born into a believing family gives you no advantage - we must all individually choose to do good or evil. Thus even those not gifted with faith - and faith is a gift - can be saved.

    Romans 2:13-15 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
    Salvation is not belief in God but belief in God is required.

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    Over 1000 post club csuguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    I would have to agree with Truster - this statement is works salvation-oriented.
    First off, you just ignored the many scriptures provided in support of my statements. Categorically dismissing the evidence because you don't like the conclusion isn't conductive to the search for truth.

    Secondly, The scriptures teach that we are judged by our deeds - and eternal life is the reward for our good deeds (see Romans 2:6-11; James 2:18-20; and the parable of the sheep & goats in Matthew 25 for a start)

    We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
    Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
    He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
    In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
    Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
    Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
    No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

    I John 4:6-12

    John paints the picture of those that know God and those that don't. Those that know Him love the brethren - but at the heart of it is God's love predicating our love. And it is intertwined with those that hear John and his teaching (and agree with what the church held). It is a matter of identification, not prescription - he isn't saying that knowing God comes with our efforts to love Him. Rather...
    Great passage, but, to clarify, when he says "if we love one another" he is speaking of everyone, universally.

    Luke 10:30-37 Jesus replied and said, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and [n]beat him, and went away leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion, 34 and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 On the next day he took out two [o]denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.’ 36 Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers’ hands?” 37 And he said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do [p]the same.”

    Furthermore, and I can't stress this enough, love is not identification. Love is action. Christ serves as THE example of what love looks like: self-sacrifice for the sake of others. Christ didn't go to the righteous, he didn't go to those who were like him. He went to the poor, the forsaken, and the sinner.


    John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

    James 2:14-17 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [n]that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [o]be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is [p]dead, being by itself.

    We love him, because he first loved us.
    I John 4:19

    Or should we say that if we want God to dwell in us we must FIRST love Him? If we can't say that, then we have to admit that the love is a marker - an indicator - of God's love in us and our being born of Him.
    John clarifies at the beginning of the next chapter what it means to love God:

    1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

    To love God is to obey God, to fulfill his commandments, to do what is right. This, in turn, means loving others. God loves us first - but we must reciprocate that love first before he dwells in us.

    So unless our love of God is an indicator - a fruit or a marker (so to speak) of our relationship with God - rather than that which we do to cause us to know Him - we must preach works salvation.
    Our love isn't a mere indicator - it is something we ourselves must actively strive to do. Loving God means loving one another, and loving one another means caring about others and sacrificing of yourself to help them. Good works is our purpose, and we must devote ourselves to doing what is right. Hence we are constantly told to persevere, lest we be found wanting.

    James 1:12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

    1 Cor 9:26-27 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I [l]discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

    Matthew 24:12-13 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

    Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

    1 John 2:25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

    THAT SAID...I believe this knowing Him is a progressive thing. But it all comes from Him and as we continue in Him, we grow in His love.

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
    John 17:3
    As demonstrated in the OP, knowing God - and being known by God - are a matter of love. When we love one another, that is love for God. When we give to those in need, we are giving to God. And this is true regardless of one's belief. To love God isn't for God to love himself. It is for us to love God, for us to love others.



    Paul, I believe, is saying that his life is being more and more conformed to Christ and he knows more of Christ and less of himself. More of Christ's love and less of his own. That seed was planted at conversion (I John 3:9) but it certainly has to grow. And all that attends that growth must be realized in his life as he presses on and does not look back - but perseveres to the end. That is lifelong - and goes well beyond simple acts of charity we may do to and for the brethren. It is ongoing change in us until we come into the maturity of the "perfect man" spoken of in Ephesians 4:13. That doesn't just include, but is centered in speaking the truth (doctrine) in love (the love of God being perfected in us). Growing up into Christ - the head - in all things.
    Doctrine isn't necessary in the least for love. Doctrine is a guide that only has value when acted upon. If people do what is right without doctrine - then they demonstrate that they have the capacity for good independent of doctrine.

    Romans 2:14-15 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

    Love isn't doctrine or faith. It is not found in some mystery nor does it require great knowledge. Love is a matter of heart: what you value, how you choose to live your life, how you choose to treat others.

    1 Cor 13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

    Look at how Paul describes love. He differentiates it from the various gifts: faith, speaking in tongues, prophecy, knowledge, etc. Love isn't any of these things - love is a matter of who we are, our disposition, how we treat others. Love is patient, kind, does not envy, isn't easily angered, etc.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Over 1000 post club csuguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Eph 2:4-10 KJV But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved (6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    Cherry-picking won't make all the verses that so clearly contradict your position go away. Christ's sacrifice was indeed a matter of Grace and is what enables salvation - but that's only part of the story, else all would be saved. Since we know not all will be saved, then we need to look beyond such verses and determine what differentiates the saved from unsaved -which, as you know, is our deeds.

    Also, I love verse 10 here:


    Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    You try to use this passage against works - but it declares that the reason for our creation is to do good works.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Over 1000 post club csuguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Salvation is not belief in God but belief in God is required.
    There is no favoritism with God. He won't damn people that never even heard the Gospel. He won't damn people who heard it but rejected it because it came from the mouths of hateful bigots, crusaders, conquerors, etc. He won't damn them because they were unconvinced.

    No, faith is a gift - for no one comes to God unless he calls them. It is not the presence or absence of such a call that determines if one is saved or not. Or do you believe that all Native Americans, prior to the settlement of Christian Conquerors, are damned because they never learned of the one true God?

    No - that is favoritism, a sin. God looks not at our stated beliefs, but at our hearts and at our deeds.
    Last edited by csuguy; April 4th, 2019 at 09:53 AM.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Salvation is not belief in God but belief in God is required.
    Indeed: one not only must believe but one must also trust in His Character...

    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    Cherry-picking won't make all the verses that so clearly contradict your position go away.
    Posting clear and concise scripture is not cherry-picking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Over 1000 post club csuguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Posting clear and concise scripture is not cherry-picking.
    Taking a passage and presenting it in a manner contradictory to the overwhelming testimony of the scriptures is cherry-picking. You're using a proof text to ignore everything you don't like rather than attempting to properly interpret the passage with respects to the rest of scripture.

    Hence, as I have pointed out many times, the fact that Jesus died for all - yet not all are saved. And the scriptures are very clear about why some are saved and others are not - and that is their actions. Christ's sacrifice, which makes salvation possible, and the promises of the New Covenant are indeed Grace that we did not and cannot earn - but there are requirements beyond this for salvation. Else all would be saved, end of story.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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