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  1. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by bibleverse2 View Post
    2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply mean that YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they are in no way the same person (as is sometimes claimed by Gnosticism).
    Thank you for correcting my mistake. I obviously made a typo. I'm glad you read the post carefully enough to catch it.

    Regarding your explanation. I get it. I've heard the same from three other bible believing Christians in this thread. God used Satan to cause David to sin.

    I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. God causing David to sin, or God causing Satan to cause David to sin would be an evil act because it is intentional harm caused to another living being. Would you like to know what I think is an even better explanation?

    Neither God, nor Satan caused David to sin. David chose to number the fighting men of Israel because he wanted to know the capability of his fighting force. Have you ever read Luke chapter 14?

    "Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace."

  2. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    You have shown your opinion, and belief. You have not shown that they are not contradictory.
    Well, I have, actually, shown that they are not INHERENTLY contradictory...

    Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions, but a person is not entitled to make up their own facts.

    I didn't invent the word contradiction, or its meaning. It existed long before I was born. But, I did use it in conversation/argument/debate. I included its meaning from the dictionary in my post so that it would be clear I was not making things up.

    It is a fact that by definition, the scriptures are contradictory because they say different things about the same thing.
    Saying it doesn't make it so...

    I have said that God as an indirect agent caused David, by using Satan, to number Israel.

    That is in no way contradictory.

    The Hebrew "cause" is less causal than our western understanding of "cause," more along the lines of setting up circumstances which might lead to something happening, such as causing someone to commit adultery (for example, not even if you rape a man's wife can you cause (our sense, not Hebrew) her to commit adultery). You're not actually causing them directly to commit adultery, but rather setting up their circumstances where it is almost inevitable that it will happen

    You don't like this fact, so you choose to ignore it and make a false claim, based upon your beliefs.
    Claiming to know exactly what someone thinks on an internet forum just seems like posturing to me...

    You don't believe the Bible should be contradictory (I'm guessing)
    Rather, I believe that the Bible, in its original autographs, was completely in line with itself, and that God expects those who read it to be "on the same page," as it were, as He is, which means understanding the context in which it was written, including understanding idioms, figures of speech, etc, of the time.

    Also, in a similar manner to DNA, which is another "book" God wrote, the Bible itself has error correcting mechanisms, so that even if a scribe makes an error while copying an older manuscript, such mistakes are easily identified and can be corrected. For example, in 1631, a version of the Bible was produced which left out the word "not" in the sixth commandment, "Thou shall not commit adultery." It was quickly recalled, and even branded "The Wicked Bible."

    .....and rightly so. But, you're willing to allow your own personal beliefs to overshadow the truth, and that is not positive.... in my opinion.

    Since you are willing to disregard truth in favor of your beliefs, I felt that there was no need to continue discussing the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    In a sense, I believe that God has every say regarding every thing that happens. That is to say, it is my belief that everything which exists is the result of God in some way. How he did things, why he does things, what our existence actually is, what the meaning of it is, these are questions that I am not able to answer at this time.
    Fair enough. Would you at least think about it some? Thanks.

    Predestination and Free Will are topics that I think are best left for the religious people to debate. I'm not sure I believe in either in the meaning that you most likely ascribe to the terms. It is my opinion that things I choose to do or not do, are the result of my own decision making and they are not the result of some evil being attempting to entice me.
    I think this gets back to what I said above, about "cause" as a Hebrew idiom as opposed to our more legalistic western understanding of "cause."

    Would you agree that one being can influence, at least to some extent, the decisions another being makes, even if it's not at the level of "absolute control."

    For, if God made me inferior to evil beings who could cause me to harm myself or others,
    Again, I think this goes back to what was said above about cause, and even the ability to make our own decisions.

    then he wouldn't be much a loving Father now would he?
    First, it's good that you recognize that in order for God to be good then He must also be loving.

    Second, God did not make evil beings. The creation that He made was "very good," because anything coming from God is good. So in a sense, you're sort of question begging that God made evil beings in order to put other beings into harm's way, which simply isn't the case.

    In the same way that any sane and caring parent would not willingly leave their children in the care of a twisted psychopath or serial child molester.
    Again, God did not create evil beings, but rather He gave perfect beings the ability to choose between loving Him or rejecting Him, and by rejecting Him, they bring harm to not only themselves, but to those around them.

    A loving parent would always seek the highest good for their children
    Agreed...

    and never knowingly place them in harms way.
    By that do you mean that such a loving parent would not allow their child to venture out into the world?

    Are you envisioning a God who is a complete control freak?

    I've got to hand it to you. You've got me on this one. I don't know how to respond to it.

  3. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Well, I have, actually, shown that they are not INHERENTLY contradictory...



    Saying it doesn't make it so.
    Iím sorry, but saying it is so does make it so when you are right.

    I didnít wish to discuss this with you anymore but you are just so wrong and you wonít take down.

    You did not show that those two verses are not contradictory. You could not do that because they are contradictory.

    What you did was show that you donít understand that they are contradictory. Instead, you believe that your ability to offer an explanation to the contradiction makes the contradiction disappear.

    It doesnít and Iíll be happy to tell you why. Itís because there are more than two explanations for the contradiction. It could be that neither God nor Satan inspired David to commit the numbering. He may have decided that action for himself. Since that possibility exists aside from your explanation of the contradiction, your opinion is not proved.

    What is proven is that the words contained in the Bible about this event are contradictory.

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    I believe in love. Not the way Christians talk about it, hypocritically. I can’t say I believe in love, but love will throw you in a lake of fire to burn forever. I believe in real love. The kind of love that is real and nor contradictory. I believe God loves everyone. The only problem I have is with truly evil people. I don’t know how God loves them. FWIW.

    Since I don’t love them, it’s hard for me to understand how God does. FWIW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    It is a fact that by definition, the scriptures are contradictory because they say different things about the same thing.
    No, difference is not contradiction. For imagine someone describing an elephant: "It is wide and flat", in reference to its ears. And then he describes the same elephant as "narrow and round", in reference to its trunk. He is describing the same thing, the same elephant, in different ways, but not in contradictory ways. For the elephant simply has different parts.

    Similarly, the Bible does not say contradictory things about the same thing, but may refer to different aspects of it.

    For example, even some Christians think that the "one baptism" of Ephesians 4:5 contradicts the idea of two different baptisms. But one thing can include multiple aspects, like how the Trinity is one God (Mark 12:29, John 10:30) and yet includes three Persons at the same time (Mark 1:9-11, Matthew 28:19). And Christian faith is one faith and yet includes multiple core beliefs, such as that Jesus Christ not only suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, but also physically rose from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Similarly, while Christian baptism is one baptism (Ephesians 4:5), it includes two different aspects: water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 10:44-48).

    --

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    What you're saying that that 12 inches doesn't equal a foot because we invented the measure?
    No, that saying that 12 inches equals a foot is a human invention, and not "self-apparent".

    For someone in the forests of the Amazon who has never heard of an "inch" or a "foot" would not know what either was.

    But if he is an elect individual, and hears the Word of YHWH God, the Holy Bible, then he will believe it without question (Acts 13:48).

    (See also post #347 above)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Back away from the exterior of your home wall (make sure it's not a wall with a window) and run into it full speed. Do you know what you will experience?

    Pain.

    That is truth. What does God have to do with that?
    He created and maintains in existence the atoms which make up the wall, and determined by the rules of His physics that the wall's atoms could not be passed through by anything larger than a subatomic particle.

    Similarly, YHWH God has set up moral rules which cannot be infringed upon without consequences, regardless of what someone may imagine. For example:

    Proverbs 14:12 ∂There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

    Again:

    Proverbs 16:25 ∂There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

    For by rejecting YHWH God's own Word the Holy Bible, people abandon the only way for them to saved from hell. For:

    2 Timothy 3:15 . . . from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
    2 Timothy 4:1 ∂I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
    2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    --

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    I believe I have asked you about the Book of Mormon twice.
    And I still have not read it. For what are its claims with regard to salvation from hell?

    That is, will I go to hell if I do not believe it? And if so, based on what part of YHWH God's own Word the Holy Bible?

    Also, this brings to mind the fact that there are incorrect traditions from fallible men (Colossians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:18) which contradict God's Word (Mark 7:13). And there are correct traditions from God's Word (2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6; 2 Timothy 3:16, John 17:17, John 8:31b). There are also man-made traditions which, even though they do not contradict God's Word, they go beyond it (cf. 1 Corinthians 4:6b), and so they are not binding on Christians, who can choose for themselves whether or not they will follow such traditions (cf. Romans 14:5-6).

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    If you want to find out if the bible is literally true or false, then I think it's best if you work on that for yourself, rather than having me answer it for you.
    I already know that it is true (2 Timothy 3:16).

    But you will not share with me what source of truth you believe proves the Bible to be false?

    --

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    If words mean things, then they do in fact contradict 1 Corinthians 14:33.
    Note that no words in the original Hebrew or Greek Bible contradict 1 Corinthians 14:33.

    --

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    God causing David to sin, or God causing Satan to cause David to sin would be an evil act because it is intentional harm caused to another living being.
    No, neither God nor Satan can ever cause anyone to sin in the sense of going against their free will (James 1:14).

    --

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    It could be that neither God nor Satan inspired David to commit the numbering. He may have decided that action for himself.
    It was all three.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    What is proven is that the words contained in the Bible about this event are contradictory.
    No, for note that no contradiction has been proven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    I can’t say I believe in love, but love will throw you in a lake of fire to burn forever.
    Note that as mere humans, we must be careful not to condemn the way that God Himself has chosen to reveal all that He is (Romans 9:20-24): both a loving being (1 John 4:8, John 15:13, Matthew 26:28) and a vengeful being (Hebrews 12:29, Luke 12:49; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9). We must not say that it is evil for God not to elect and save everyone, and to send the nonelect and unsaved into eternal suffering (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11). For by saying this we would be making humans more important than God and His wishes. And this is something which Satan causes people to do, just as Jesus Christ at one point "said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matthew 16:23).

    No matter how it may irk the Satanic pride of us humans, wanting to be important like God (Isaiah 14:12-14), so important that He would never even think of not saving all of us, and casting some of us into hell forever (Isaiah 14:15, Revelation 20:10,15), we must always remember that it is God's right to do with His creatures whatever He wants (Romans 9:21-23), and that even all of humanity together is infinitesimal and worth "less than nothing" compared with God (Isaiah 40:17-18, Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 2:22). We must resist our Satanic, human pride (which we can unconsciously disguise with good-sounding words about God's love for us), and completely humble ourselves before God (James 4:7-10; 1 Peter 5:6-8), pleading that He might have mercy on us sinners (Luke 18:13-14).

    Satan would love nothing more than to get us humans in our sinful pride to wrongly reject YHWH God of the Bible as evil, so that we will end up in the lake of fire and brimstone forever with Satan and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:43-44). The future Antichrist, who will be empowered by Satan (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:4), will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And no doubt one of his chief blasphemies against YHWH will be that YHWH is an evil god. (This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh: 2 John 1:7.) During the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, the world will be deceived into rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") instead (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9).

    It is the ultimate proof of the humility of Christians (James 4:10, Acts 20:19a, Matthew 23:12) for them to accept the facts of double predestination (Romans 9:11-24) and an eternal hell (Matthew 25:41,46), without rejecting YHWH as being evil for these things. For it means that Christians have humbly accepted the fact that the wholly-good YHWH God (Deuteronomy 32:4; 1 John 1:5) is infinitely more important than even all of humanity together (Isaiah 40:17, Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 2:22).

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    I believe God loves everyone. The only problem I have is with truly evil people. I don’t know how God loves them. FWIW.

    Since I don’t love them, it’s hard for me to understand how God does. FWIW.
    Note that God does not love everyone, for He hates nonelect individuals (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens nonelect individuals in their sinfulness instead of showing them His mercy (Romans 9:18), because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them, or anyone else, to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All individuals will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of individuals.

    God created nonelect individuals to be vessels of His wrath instead of vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect individuals to be vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

    God wants these aspects of His character to be known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath will not be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels, and all non-Christians of all times, are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and Christians and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth (as in a new surface for the earth) to witness the suffering of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of His wrath.

  7. #532
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    Bibleverse2, thank you for your responses. At the top of post #530 you said that difference is not a contradiction. Would you mind explaining to me what a contradiction actually is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bibleverse2 View Post

    It is the ultimate proof of the humility of Christians (James 4:10, Acts 20:19a, Matthew 23:12) for them to accept the facts of double predestination (Romans 9:11-24) and an eternal hell (Matthew 25:41,46), without rejecting YHWH as being evil for these things. For it means that Christians have humbly accepted the fact that the wholly-good YHWH God (Deuteronomy 32:4; 1 John 1:5) is infinitely more important than even all of humanity together (Isaiah 40:17, Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 2:22).
    Perhaps that is true for Christians, but it doesnít work for me. I believe it is better to ascribe only righteousness to my maker and reject any notion that God is intentionally evil.


    Note that God does not love everyone, for He hates nonelect individuals (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens nonelect individuals in their sinfulness instead of showing them His mercy (Romans 9:18), because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them, or anyone else, to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All individuals will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of individuals.

    God created nonelect individuals to be vessels of His wrath instead of vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect individuals to be vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).
    Iím sorry, I cannot note that because I donít believe it to be true. Love has no wrath because itís nature doesnít allow it. I think the idea of ďangry GodĒ is a made up idea because of human fear.

  9. #534
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    In the abundance of water, only the fool goes thirsty.

    Bob Marley

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    Adam raised a Cain.

    Bruce Springsteen.

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    Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens.

    Jimi Hendrix

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    I know Jimi Hendrix overdosed on drugs. It happens. Life is hard. The struggle is real.

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    John 1: 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    We know that the life of Christ has no beginning and is also without and end. That He is eternal.

    How is this god different from our God?

    And how do we know that your god is not the same God that we worship. But with a different name?
    Abraham did not do such things.... (John 8:40)

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0de View Post
    John 1: 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    We know that the life of Christ has no beginning and is also without and end. That He is eternal.

    How is this god different from our God?

    And how do we know that your god is not the same God that we worship. But with a different name?
    I would say you could be right KOde. If thereís only one God it makes sense. It just seems to be that thereís a lot of Christian people who believe in more than one God. Many seems to believe that Satan is also a God. They believe heís the God of this world.

    I donít believe it but many do.

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    Over 6000 post club 6days's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    I would say you could be right KOde. If thereís only one God it makes sense. It just seems to be that thereís a lot of Christian people who believe in more than one God. Many seems to believe that Satan is also a God. They believe heís the God of this world.

    I donít believe it but many do.
    a Christian is a follower of Christ... All Christians believe there is one God. However, there are many gods. Some people have their career as their god... Or, family, or a boyfriend, or sports. But.. "the Lord our God is one"... There is only one Creator God.

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