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Thread: My Religion

  1. #271
    Over 750 post club Guyver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    The Bible proves my point too. Read Genesis 1. Where does it prove yours? You need to read verse 25.
    I don’t care.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

  2. #272
    Over 750 post club Guyver's Avatar
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    Bright Raven, I mean that in a good way, I would not insult you.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Dude! Seriously. What are we talking about? I’m arguing that according to the Bible, God used some form of evolution to bring forth all living creatures from the earth. Duh. I mean, I don’t like to be insulting, but what the heck?
    I wanted to know for what you were arguing. I do not see a point you are making. In other words, I do not conclude that the Bible is talking about evolution. Sorry. That is all. You can change your opinion.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I wanted to know for what you were arguing. I do not see a point you are making. In other words, I do not conclude that the Bible is talking about evolution. Sorry. That is all. You can change your opinion.
    You told me that people find you impossible to talk to. That is why.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

  5. #275
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    I reject all of the worlds religions of which I am aware.
    Including the Bible?

    In regards to this great [Bible], I have but to say it is the best God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave the world was communicated through this book. But for it, we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare, here and hereafter, are found portrayed in it. -Abraham Lincoln



    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    “When I do good I feel good, and when I do bad, I feel bad. And that is my religion.” -Abraham Lincoln
    Like Abraham Lincoln, a take a more simple and straightforward approach to religion.
    When I left Springfield [for the Presidency], I asked the people to pray for me. I was not a Christian. When I buried my son, the severest trial of my life, I was not a Christian. But, when I went to Gettysburg and saw the graves of thousands of soldiers, I then and there consecrated myself to Christ - Abraham Lincoln
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  6. #276
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    I’ll argue it. Genesis chapter one verse 24 says let the Earth bring forth all living creatures according to their kind. And it can be observed that all creatures live after their kind.
    "Evolution" makes things happen or 'is the mechanism that makes things." While your 'idea' (I'd argue NOT 'evolution') is tangible, and can fit into the scriptural theme, I'm convinced "Evolution as a mechanism" is incompatible with "Creation." Colossians 1:17

    IOW, I think well-meaning theists believe in scientific observation, but the term "evolution" as portrayed and understood in the scientific community, is anti-theological by its inception and components. It is an idea that things can live and become, all in and of themselves. It simply doesn't happen. Again Colossians 1:17

    If you ever find a scientist that argues against that idea of evolution, you've found a good scientist but they are going against the majority of their community at that point. Evolution, perhaps without meaning to do so, is agnostic at best and often the fodder for atheists who don't understand why science is agnostic (without purposefully meaning to be). It simply tries to make observations without being religious in complication. That said a few too many of them then think that "If I can't see it, touch it, or otherwise scientifically observe it, then it doesn't exist." That's really poor thinking. Meta (with) physics is proof enough of that. Not sure how much such is part of the intent of your thread, however. -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  7. #277
    Over 750 post club Guyver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    "Evolution" makes things happen or 'is the mechanism that makes things." While your 'idea' (I'd argue NOT 'evolution') is tangible, and can fit into the scriptural theme, I'm convinced "Evolution as a mechanism" is incompatible with "Creation." Colossians 1:17

    IOW, I think well-meaning theists believe in scientific observation, but the term "evolution" as portrayed and understood in the scientific community, is anti-theological by its inception and components. It is an idea that things can live and become, all in and of themselves. It simply doesn't happen. Again Colossians 1:17

    If you ever find a scientist that argues against that idea of evolution, you've found a good scientist but they are going against the majority of their community at that point. Evolution, perhaps without meaning to do so, is agnostic at best and often the fodder for atheists who don't understand why science is agnostic (without purposefully meaning to be). It simply tries to make observations without being religious in complication. That said a few too many of them then think that "If I can't see it, touch it, or otherwise scientifically observe it, then it doesn't exist." That's really poor thinking. Meta (with) physics is proof enough of that. Not sure how much such is part of the intent of your thread, however. -Lon
    I don’t care what the intent of the thread was, I want to hear from people who can think and make rational argument. So thank you for responding.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    You told me that people find you impossible to talk to. That is why.
    Because I don't believe in evolution? What is why?

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Because I don't believe in evolution? What is why?
    You think YOUR believing or not believing a thing has any effect on the reality of that thing whatsoever? That’s silly. Things which exist do not require anyone’s beliefs.

    The fact is that everything in this world changes all the time. Evolution means change over time. You not believing it has no effect on it whatsoever. Look at your face in the mirror. Now, look at a picture of yourself when you were a baby. Now, think back to the time when you were a teenager and you looked at your face in the mirror. You have changed over time, and you will continue to change over time, even after the day you die.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    You think YOUR believing or not believing a thing has any effect on the reality of that thing whatsoever? That’s silly. Things which exist do not require anyone’s beliefs.

    The fact is that everything in this world changes all the time. Evolution means change over time. You not believing it has no effect on it whatsoever. Look at your face in the mirror. Now, look at a picture of yourself when you were a baby. Now, think back to the time when you were a teenager and you looked at your face in the mirror. You have changed over time, and you will continue to change over time, even after the day you die.
    That is not the Theory of Evolution.

  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Are you attempting to argue that "one day is as a thousand years" is some actual spiritual time dimension allowing God to microcondense real people years into some make believe sequence?
    No, not make-believe, but simply from God's viewpoint instead of man's (2 Peter 3:8-9).

    For example, in Revelation 1:1,3, as in Revelation 22:6,10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as: "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus Christ's (still future) Second Coming. That is, shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not humans (2 Peter 3:8-9, Psalms 90:4).

    Also, from the viewpoint of humans, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after the apostle John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the seven, literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all of the (to us) still-future events of the Tribulation and subsequent Second Coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8, Psalms 90:4). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 and Matthew 24 from the viewpoint of God, not humans, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

    Other books in the Bible contain prophecies of events which would not occur for 3,000 to 4,000 years. For example, Ezekiel prophesied of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Revelation 20:8-9) some 3,600 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Ezekiel gave that prophecy some 600 years before Jesus Christ's first coming but it will not be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after Jesus' (still future) Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:10). Also, God prophesied Jesus' spiritual defeat of Satan at the Crucifixion (Genesis 3:15, Hebrews 2:14) some 4,000 years before its occurrence. And Isaiah prophesied God creating a New Heaven and a New Earth (Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1-8) some 3,700 years before its (still future) occurrence, for Isaiah gave that prophecy some 700 years before Jesus' first coming but it will not be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after His (still future) Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 21:8).

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    . . . I think you should know......considering that you believe Adam was the first man. There is scientific evidence proving beyond the shadow of any doubt that human beings have been alive for much longer than 6,000 years ago. So, if God made Adam and Eve, as that bible story claims..... he did it much earlier than 4,000 BC.
    Note that 1 Corinthians 15:45 does not require that there were no humans on the earth before Adam. For just as "the first day" in Philippians 1:5 does not have to mean "the first day" of Genesis 1:5, and just as "the first works" in Revelation 2:5 do not have to mean the first earthly works of Genesis 1:1, so "the first man" in 1 Corinthians 15:45 does not have to mean the first man ever to exist on the earth. Instead, Adam can be the first man of the Adamic line of humans which is alive on the earth today.

    (See also my first blog entry on this site.)

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  13. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I think well-meaning theists believe in scientific observation, but the term "evolution" as portrayed and understood in the scientific community, is anti-theological by its inception and components. It is an idea that things can live and become, all in and of themselves. It simply doesn't happen. Again Colossians 1:17
    Note that evolution per se should be distinguished from abiogenesis. For evolution per se (random mutation of life and survival of the fittest individuals) does not require abiogenesis (that life itself arose solely by chance from non-living matter). That is, it could have been God who miraculously created the earliest, one-celled life-forms, and then let them develop naturally by His created process of evolution into different, more complex life-forms over millions of years.

    Or, God could have miraculously set things up so that in certain environments, atoms would form molecules, which would form chemicals, which would form cells, which would form nucleic acids, which would be able to replicate themselves and mutate randomly.

    Indeed, God could have set things up so that atoms themselves would form. For physicists point out that if the fundamental constants of the universe (for example, Planck's constant, or the strength of subatomic electric charges, or the strength of the strong nuclear force, or the strength of gravity, etc.) were off by even a little bit, matter would not have been able to form and coalesce as we know it, and so life as we know it would never have been possible. This is called the "Anthropic Cosmological Principle", meaning that we humans only exist today because the universe was exactly tuned to make our existence possible. Atheists then have only two choices to explain our existence. It is either just an almost-impossible coincidence, one chance out of an infinite number of other possibilities for how the universe could have been tuned. Or, there must be an infinite number of other universes, almost all of which are lifeless. Either way, atheists cannot explain how any universe could even exist at all without the existence of God (Romans 1:20).

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  15. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by bibleverse2 View Post
    No, not make-believe, but simply from God's viewpoint instead of man's (2 Peter 3)
    From Gods perspective, time doesn’t exist except as a component of the physical world; since he is eternally existent, with no beginning or end and obviously predates all universes.

    I do commend you for the reasoned post you have provided, but I believe you have misunderstood and misapplied those verses claiming “Gods time” as one thousand years = one earth day. I could argue this point and provide refutation for this point, even granting you the one thousand years as a basis for measuring “prophetic time” based upon 1 John 2:18. Using one thousand years as twenty four one hour periods shows that the last hour occurred well over a thousand years ago.

    A sincere and complete study of the Revelation, especially verse one from chapter one and associated verses following, demonstrate the language and intent of the prophecy was the immediate future from the time of its writing.

    So, I will respectfully disagree with you, inform you that I have a different understanding than you, but don’t necessarily wish to engage in an elongated debate over it.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

  16. #284
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bibleverse2 View Post
    Note that evolution per se should be distinguished from abiogenesis. For evolution per se (random mutation of life and survival of the fittest individuals) does not require abiogenesis (that life itself arose solely by chance from non-living matter). That is, it could have been God who miraculously created the earliest, one-celled life-forms, and then let them develop naturally by His created process of evolution into different, more complex life-forms over millions of years.

    Or, God could have miraculously set things up so that in certain environments, atoms would form molecules, which would form chemicals, which would form cells, which would form nucleic acids, which would be able to replicate themselves and mutate randomly.

    Indeed, God could have set things up so that atoms themselves would form. For physicists point out that if the fundamental constants of the universe (for example, Planck's constant, or the strength of subatomic electric charges, or the strength of the strong nuclear force, or the strength of gravity, etc.) were off by even a little bit, matter would not have been able to form and coalesce as we know it, and so life as we know it would never have been possible. This is called the "Anthropic Cosmological Principle", meaning that we humans only exist today because the universe was exactly tuned to make our existence possible. Atheists then have only two choices to explain our existence. It is either just an almost-impossible coincidence, one chance out of an infinite number of other possibilities for how the universe could have been tuned. Or, there must be an infinite number of other universes, almost all of which are lifeless. Either way, atheists cannot explain how any universe could even exist at all without the existence of God (Romans 1:20).
    This might fit freewill and autonomous models, but not the rest of our understanding of Theology: In Genesis 1:22 there is a sense of 'allowing' things to progress, but importantly, the theologian understands John 1:3, 15:5 Colossians 1:16,17 etc.


    Theologians aren't against science nor necessarily against those secular observations, but only as they neglect/do not accurately grasp the nature of creation by such expressions. When I've been a science teacher in public school, I've geared my instruction with better neutral language that fits what happens in creation by God's hand. Basically, I've avoided 'this thing happened by itself' language. It is true that 'no sparrow falls without God's knowing it' but there is a sense of His involvement and absolutely proximity, as well as Being and Sustaining the life thereof (again Colossians 1:16,17).

    Anytime I'm in the process of scientific inquiry, I'm ever mindful that nothing 'just happens,' that likewise, all of creation is subject to the fall, Romans 8:19-23

    Isaiah 44:24 1 Corinthians 8:6 Ephesians 3:9 Hebrews 3:4 Romans 11:36
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  17. #285
    Over 750 post club Guyver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post

    Anytime I'm in the process of scientific inquiry, I'm ever mindful that nothing 'just happens,' that likewise, all of creation is subject to the fall, Romans 8:19-23

    Isaiah 44:24 1 Corinthians 8:6 Ephesians 3:9 Hebrews 3:4 Romans 11:36
    And that is where you abandon scientific inquiry and embrace superstition Lon. For, while it is true that nothing ever “just happens” attempting to insert the “fall” is to leave science and embrace religiously inspired superstition.

    I see why the notion of the fall is enticing to people of your mindset. It would be nice to blame the seemingly imperfect nature of this world to sin, the devil, or both....however, to do so means that you no longer may consider God omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Instead, you must believe that God is imperfect, like the world seems to be, and that things are not as he intended. This, even if you and others who share your views don’t acknowledge it.

    If the fall is a real thing, then it means God slipped up, got snookered, or allowed it to happen on purpose. I don’t see any other plausible scenario to explain it, and I can’t accept any of those three as being truth. FWIW.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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