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Thread: My Religion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
    Its like trying to explain any experience that maybe a foreign concept to the one asking, not saying that's your state of being for you may have had your own experiences no one else has, I can find mine in the narrative of scripture, you might not see the connection or interpret Christ in you as I would, yet its clearly taught that's the case being presented by Christ operating in the age old motif portrayed by Jesus.

    A kidney isn't going to replace a heart function yet its in the same sensory body and conscience, we tend to demand everyone believe alike, yet that's not how a body of individualized personalities function in various stages of spiritual growth, some will take offense when their belief is challenged by other parts of the Body they haven't experienced yet, which is a natural reaction for egocentric survival.
    Well thought and said. You have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Not if the Resurrection of Christ is nonfiction historical fact, I don't. The informed decision is to believe in Christ, in that case. So in as much as I do believe in Christ, I was intending it as a fact, and I did also provide the condition explicitly at the end of my post, that this fact depends upon Christ's Resurrection also being a fact.
    I was those and more, except for Pentecostal---I could never get into the 'charismatic' thing, which I've now come to find out, was because I was unknowingly waiting to celebrate the authentic Eucharist to release my 'charismatic' self. I am now quite 'charismatic,' when I am in the Real Presence of Christ. Matthew 18:20 KJV (Matthew 26:26 KJV Mark 14:22 KJV Luke 22:19 KJV 1st Corinthians 11:24 KJV)
    I am a practicing Christian now.
    I disagree that the truth is that Christ is not risen from the dead.
    I thank you.
    I believe that too. I also believe that God has made it clear what His will is for all of us under His loving care, and it's to be a Catholic Christian.
    Yes.
    I think your religion probably works for you and makes you a better person. And for that, I am happy for you. I hope it continues to work for you and that there won’t come a time when it will not, because I think you have been partially enlightened as I believe I have.

    But, that’s not to say that what you believe will work for everyone, because it won’t. It wouldn’t work for me.

    For me, I believe God reaches everyone who wishes to be reached, and it doesn’t matter what else. No skin color, nationality, religion, back ground, nothing. There is no place where the God I believe in can’t work. And whatever does work.....well, that’s thanks to him as I see it.

    Yet, there’s some I don’t understand. Like, the rape or murder of children, or any other human being. It’s hard for me, because I know it’s evil, yet it exists. Since I do not accept the Christian explanation for it as satisfactory, I must live my life in search of the answer and with patience.

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  4. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    ...it doesn't say unrepentant murderers....it says murderers.
    Revelation 21:8 means unrepentant murderers, for there is forgiveness from YHWH God for sins, if there is subsequent repentance and confession to Him (1 John 1:9). Note, for example, how YHWH God forgave the repentant King David for murdering Uriah (2 Samuel 12:9,13), even though the Old Covenant required that murderers be executed (Numbers 35:31).

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    My religion doesn't allow me to accept non-truth as a basis for truth.
    But by rejecting YHWH God's own Word the Holy Bible, you are rejecting the truth (2 Timothy 3:16) in order to follow some non-truth, which is quite common. That is why Christians are commanded to keep preaching God's Word:

    2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    1 Timothy 4:1 . . . the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron . . .

    What is your source of moral truth outside of the Bible? That is, what source have you placed above the Bible and so reject it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    The bible says different things about the same things.
    Can you give one example, so we can look at that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    . . . you can consider it a sin to kill, or murder people in the New Testament, when it was obviously approved in the Old
    Testament.
    Note that the Old Testament nowhere approved of murder. Indeed, even one of its core, Ten Commandments forbade murder:

    Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    There is no greater freedom than being a Catholic Christian. Believing in Christ, and being in full communion with His Church, is the life that the Lord wants for all His sheep; He wants us in His fold.

    We are under His care, we are safe from wolves, and we live "as free" (1st Peter 2:16 KJV, cf. Galatians 5:13 KJV).
    Note that no Christians are necessarily safe from wolves:

    Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

    Matthew 10:16 ¶Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

    Matthew 7:15 ¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    Because all humans (except Jesus Christ) are fallible, the Church itself (unlike YHWH God's own Word the Holy Bible: 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4) has never been a perfect model for Christian doctrine and practice. There have always been wrong divisions (Acts 6:1; 1 Corinthians 1:12-13; 1 Corinthians 3:4) and heresies in the Church (1 Corinthians 11:18-19). For even those whom God's Holy Spirit has made leaders in the Church (Acts 20:28) can wrongly employ their free will to teach wrong doctrines and practices which increase their power over people in the Church (Acts 20:30, cf. also 3 John 1:9-10). They and their followers can mistakenly forget the warnings of 1 Peter 5:3, Matthew 20:25-27, and Matthew 23:8-12.

    Also, even Satan's ministers can transform themselves into "apostles" of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:13-15, cf. also Matthew 7:15). And even those truly appointed as apostles by Jesus can wrongly employ their free will to fall from their office (Acts 1:17,20b,25). So even the teachings of apostles must be checked against YHWH God's own Word the Holy Bible (Acts 17:11b). So how much more must the doctrine of lesser "teachers" in the Church (1 Corinthians 12:28, Ephesians 4:11) also be checked against the Bible, to make sure that what they are teaching is not mistaken (2 Peter 2:1-3; 2 Timothy 4:2-4)?

    This could become especially important in our future. For the beast who comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 represents the individual man who will become the future Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are not we all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Cannot we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but have only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"

    He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (compare Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus returned (via "reincarnation"). But he will not that say he is Christ. For the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22) and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7).

    Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), also called Satanism, a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times the prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

  6. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by bibleverse2 View Post
    Note that no Christians are necessarily safe from wolves:

    Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

    Matthew 10:16 ¶Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

    Matthew 7:15 ¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    Because all humans (except Jesus Christ) are fallible, the Church itself (unlike YHWH God's own Word the Holy Bible: 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4) has never been a perfect model for Christian doctrine and practice. There have always been wrong divisions (Acts 6:1; 1 Corinthians 1:12-13; 1 Corinthians 3:4) and heresies in the Church (1 Corinthians 11:18-19). For even those whom God's Holy Spirit has made leaders in the Church (Acts 20:28) can wrongly employ their free will to teach wrong doctrines and practices which increase their power over people in the Church (Acts 20:30, cf. also 3 John 1:9-10). They and their followers can mistakenly forget the warnings of 1 Peter 5:3, Matthew 20:25-27, and Matthew 23:8-12.

    Also, even Satan's ministers can transform themselves into "apostles" of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:13-15, cf. also Matthew 7:15). And even those truly appointed as apostles by Jesus can wrongly employ their free will to fall from their office (Acts 1:17,20b,25). So even the teachings of apostles must be checked against YHWH God's own Word the Holy Bible (Acts 17:11b).
    What on earth do you mean by this? The Apostles wrote most of the New Testament, which is part of the Holy Bible, so how do you "check" the Apostles "against" what the Apostles wrote? That makes zero sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by bibleverse2 View Post
    So how much more must the doctrine of lesser "teachers" in the Church (1 Corinthians 12:28, Ephesians 4:11) also be checked against the Bible, to make sure that what they are teaching is not mistaken (2 Peter 2:1-3; 2 Timothy 4:2-4)?
    idk if you're referring to the Catholic Church's bishops, but they all teach the whole Holy Bible, so "checking" what they teach "against the Bible" is going to get you the same answer.

    Plus, you know that they (the men holding the pastorate known as bishop) are in the Holy Bible, right? The beginning of the pastorate known as bishop ("the office of a bishop" 1Ti3:1KJV) occurred during the Apostolic era; the Apostles themselves created the office; the Apostles established the bishops as authentic pastors to preside over all the clusters of Christians living throughout the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by bibleverse2 View Post
    This could become especially important in our future. For the beast who comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 represents the individual man who will become the future Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are not we all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Cannot we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but have only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"

    He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (compare Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus returned (via "reincarnation"). But he will not that say he is Christ. For the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22) and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7).

    Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), also called Satanism, a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times the prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).
    That's impossible. Islam denies the Resurrection of Christ is nonfiction historical fact. There are those people in the world who believe in Christ's Resurrection, and there are those who don't, and all Christians do, and Muslims don't. It's impossible unless that changes, and Christians aren't going to give up Christ's Resurrection, so it has to be Islam that changes. Do you think that's possible?
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    The Apostles wrote most of the New Testament, which is part of the Holy Bible, so how do you "check" the Apostles "against" what the Apostles wrote? That makes zero sense.
    Note that it does make sense in light of the Old Testament (Acts 17:11, Acts 26:22).

    That is, the apostle Paul taught everyone what the Old Testament had taught regarding the Messiah, the Christ (Acts 26:22-23), but which had not been understood by anyone (Luke 18:34, Romans 16:25-26) until Jesus Christ explained it to His apostles after His resurrection (Luke 24:44-47, Galatians 1:12).

    And we are assured that at least some people in the Church will continue in the truth until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming. For there will be true Christians who will still be "alive and remain" at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). But the way that they will continue in the truth will not be by replacing God Himself with Church leaders as their source of truth. For Church leaders are fallible (e.g. Matthew 16:23, Galatians 2:11-14, Luke 22:34). It is only by sticking close to God's own infallible Word the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16, Acts 17:11b, John 17:17) that Christians can be sure not to be led astray by any Church leaders who might be teaching false doctrines which contradict God's Word (2 Timothy 4:2-4; 1 Timothy 4:1, John 8:31b, Mark 8:35-38).

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    . . . Christians aren't going to give up Christ's Resurrection . . .
    Biblical Christians will not (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). But note that the whole reason Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15 was to counter the Corinthian "Christian" teaching that there is no resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:12).

    So, regarding post #409 above, if a secretly-apostate pope does become the future Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20, and Revelation 16:13), then adherents of Catholicism will have to decide what their ultimate source of truth is: Is it the pope and the RCC, or God and the Bible? Many adherents of Catholicism who know God and the Bible well, and hold to them as their ultimate source of truth, will no doubt be utterly aghast at the false doctrines of a False Prophet pope. Such adherents of Catholicism could demand that he be removed for heresy, and apostasy, and that the cardinals elect a new pope. But other adherents of Catholicism, including many cardinals, bishops, and priests, could be deceived (along with most of the rest of the world) into believing the False Prophet pope's false doctrines, because of his ability to perform the most amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20; cf. Matthew 24:24).

    And so a great schism could arise within the RCC. Compare the Akita prophecy: "The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops". Many adherents of Catholicism could follow the False Prophet pope, while other adherents of Catholicism could reject him, and elect their own, new pope (or reinstate a former pope who is still alive), whom they could declare to be the "True Pope". But this new (or reinstated) "True Pope" could then be murdered, along with many of his followers, by the False Prophet pope's soldiers. Compare the Third Secret of Fatima: "he [the pope] was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions". Could the soldiers firing "arrows" be the Vatican's Swiss Guards, whose weapons and colorful uniforms hark back to the Middle Ages?

    After this slaughter, the False Prophet pope could manage to retain the papacy, and full control of the Vatican, and through his (deceived) cardinals, bishops, and priests, retain full control of all RCC cathedrals, parishes, churches, etc., throughout the world. And when the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") obtains power over all nations, he and the False Prophet will make war against true, Biblical Christians (whether they are adherents of Catholicism or not) throughout the world, and will physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken the physical power of the true Church (which consists of all true Christians, whether they are adherents of Catholicism or not: Ephesians 4:4-6) that the future Tribulation will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus Christ's Second Coming will immediately occur, at which time He will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the Church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), of all times. And at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so He/God will get all of the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For He/God will not share this glory with the Church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bibleverse2 View Post


    Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
    Killing is murder. It is the intentional infliction of death upon another living being. The same bible that claims "do not kill" is the very same bible that claims God told Moses to go and kill or murder people, on more than one occasion, including all women, children, and animals, not to mention the elderly or infirmed.

    As to your other points, I have already said that you and I cannot be of service to each other at this time because our world views and religions are polar opposites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Killing is murder. It is the intentional infliction of death upon another living being. The same bible that claims "do not kill" is the very same bible that claims God told Moses to go and kill or murder people, on more than one occasion, including all women, children, and animals, not to mention the elderly or infirmed.

    As to your other points, I have already said that you and I cannot be of service to each other at this time because our world views and religions are polar opposites.
    False premise.

    The word used in Exodus 20 is "murder," not "kill."

    Thus God is not hypocritical when He commands the death penalty for capital crimes.

    As far as God commanding His people to kill others, if God were not God the Creator of all flesh, then He would not have the inherent right as Creator to command such.

    In other words, God alone has the right, as the Creator, to bring man from the first stage of his existence, life on earth, to the final stage, the afterlife, and to do it in whatever way it pleases Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Thus God is not hypocritical when He commands the death penalty for capital crimes.
    The murder of innocent women, children, animals, the elderly and infirmed, is not the death penalty for capital crimes. But thank you for contribution. As you and I have discussed this particular topic before, I see no need to revisit it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    The murder of innocent women, children, animals, the elderly and infirmed
    Question begging.

    The killing of the above is murder when ANYONE BUT GOD commands or does it.

    God, again, has the right as the Creator to take the life of anyone because He designed man to live life in two stages, the first stage on this earth, and the second in the afterlife.

    It is not wrong for God to do so.

    It IS wrong for man to do so, except in executing justice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Question begging.

    The killing of the above is murder when ANYONE BUT GOD commands or does it.

    God, again, has the right as the Creator to take the life of anyone because He designed man to live life in two stages, the first stage on this earth, and the second in the afterlife.

    It is not wrong for God to do so.

    It IS wrong for man to do so, except in executing justice.
    That was not question begging, it was fact stating. I said, it is murder to kill innocent people and animals, not the execution of capital punishment for capital crimes.

    You believe God kills people, and instructs other people to do so, I do not. We are directly opposed in our opinions and beliefs regarding this point.

    In any event, I understand you find it enjoyable to utilize fallacy terms related to logical argument....but it doesn’t help your case when you improperly apply them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    That was not question begging, it was fact stating.
    Question begging: "begging the question is an informal fallacy that occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it. It is a type of circular reasoning: an argument that requires that the desired conclusion be true."
    (wikipedia)

    You are assuming that because it is murder for man to kill another unjustly, that therefore it is murder for God to do the same.

    Then you use that argument to say this:

    I said, it is murder to kill innocent people
    And apply it to God.

    You first need to prove that it is wrong for God to kill people and order them killed before using it as a premise.

    and animals, not the execution of capital punishment for capital crimes.
    It is not murder to kill animals, because they are not made in God's image.

    It is not murder to justly execute criminals convicted of capital crimes.

    You believe God kills people,
    Rather, I know that God killed people. He is currently not in the business of killing people.

    And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; therefore He killed him also. - Genesis 38:10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV

    That's one example.

    [QUOTE]and instructs other people to do so,[QUOTE]

    Again, it's plainly recorded in history.

    “But of the cities of these peoples which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive,but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, just as the Lord your God has commanded you,lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against the Lord your God. - Deuteronomy 20:16-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

    I do not. We are directly opposed in our opinions and beliefs regarding this point.
    And your beliefs and opinions directly contradict both scripture and history.

    In any event, I understand you find it enjoyable to utilize fallacy terms related to logical argument....but it doesn’t help your case when you improperly apply them.
    Except I did apply it correctly. You were, in fact, question begging.

    Using fallacies in your arguments doesn't make you right. In fact, if anything, it shows your position as being more likely to be untenable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post

    Rather, I know that God killed people. He is currently not in the business of killing people.
    You know God killed people, or you think God killed people? To know that God killed people means you’ve observed it. The Bible claiming that God killed people doesn’t make it true. It makes it a belief as it cannot be verified since no one has ever seen God.

    You said, “It is not a sin to kill animals because they are not made in Gods image.”

    Will you explain exactly how it is that man is made in Gods image?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    You know God killed people, or you think God killed people? To know that God killed people means you’ve observed it. The Bible claiming that God killed people doesn’t make it true. It makes it a belief as it cannot be verified since no one has ever seen God.

    You said, “It is not a sin to kill animals because they are not made in Gods image.”

    Will you explain exactly how it is that man is made in Gods image?
    Do you believe
    that you are made
    in the image of God?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ioy1273 View Post
    Do you believe
    that you are made
    in the image of God?
    What does that mean?

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