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Thread: Young Earth or Old?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Gen 1 is a summary.

    Gen 2, onward, provides the details of humanity.

    You can't take one over the other.
    and God in his summary says they were adult enough for
    Gen 1:27,28

    God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it

    Last edited by way 2 go; March 29th, 2019 at 08:11 PM. Reason: adult

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    and God in his summary says they were old enough for
    Gen 1:27,28

    God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it

    I wouldn't use the word "old."

    They were less than a day old when God gave them that command.

    I recommend using the word "mature," as maturity (especially when speaking of bodily functions) is not directly tied to age.

    Their bodies were definitely mature enough for them to be able to follow that command, even if they weren't that old.

    And most likely, they were only about a week old when they fell, and after that it likely wasn't long before they became one flesh physically.

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  5. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
    By the time of verse 2 it was no longer inhabited:"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" Gen.1:1-2)
    Oh... I see. So, you believe in the gap theory?

    But Jerry... Jesus did not believe in the Gap theory. He referred to Adam and Eve existing from "the beginning". Peter did not believe in the Gap theory, and argued against the older earthers of his day. (The epicureans). The vast majority the early church fathers We Are Young Earth creationists... And none suggested a gap of time existed between Genesis 1:1 and 2

    If Moses was to convey that there was a gap of time between Genesis 1:1 and 2, it would have been easy for him to convey that. There are many Hebrew phrases in the old Testament that Moses could have used if there was a gap of time... after this” (acharēy-kēn) or “after these things” (acharēy-haddevarîm hā-’ēleh) or, "many days” (yāmîm rābbîm) or others. Those words are common in the old Testament but never used in Genesis 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
    According to your view it was the LORD who created the earth in darkness ...
    Of course there was darkness/ absence of light until God created light. He created light before He even created the sun moon and stars. As God says in Isa.45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness"

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  7. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    I wouldn't use the word "old."

    They were less than a day old when God gave them that command.

    I recommend using the word "mature," as maturity (especially when speaking of bodily functions) is not directly tied to age.

    Their bodies were definitely mature enough for them to be able to follow that command, even if they weren't that old.

    And most likely, they were only about a week old when they fell, and after that it likely wasn't long before they became one flesh physically.
    good point

    best word would be , adult

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    A good translation? I like the New American Standard Bible (NASB) or the New American Standard Version (NASV). It isn't perfect, but it is pretty good.
    So...you have blindly selected one of the three, over that of the other two, why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Nope.

    The Garden of Eden was "Heaven," where God dwelt.

    There was no need for another heaven besides the paradise that God had just finished making.

    God was in the Garden with Adam and Eve.

    When Lucifer fell, He fell from the Garden of Eden, the only Heaven in existence at that time.

    Or did you not notice that God didn't curse Lucifer until AFTER he caused Adam and Eve to sin?

    Where does scripture state that Eden was 'Heaven'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    and God in his summary says they were adult enough for
    Gen 1:27,28

    God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it


    Were Adam and Eve to multiply before, or after, they were created in Gen 2?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Where does scripture state that Eden was 'Heaven'?
    Heaven is a paradise, is it not?

    Did God create a Paradise?

    Satan fell ONCE, not twice, and it was in the Garden of Eden, just prior to his tempting of Eve.

    Jesus said Satan fell from heaven.

    Ezekiel describes Lucifer (through his description of the King of Tyre) as falling from Eden, the Garden of God.

    Isaiah describes Lucifer as wanting to "ascend into heaven," (which by this point in time is no longer Eden) something He can't do if he's already in the heavens (where's he gonna go?), and to "ascend above the heights of the clouds," something he can't do if he's already above them.

    So here's your scripture that, as a whole, describes Eden as Heaven.

    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.And "God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day. - Genesis 1:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

    AND

    Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. - Genesis 1:31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1&version=NKJV

    AND

    “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. - Isaiah 14:12-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...5&version=NKJV

    AND

    “Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Because your heart is lifted up, And you say, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,’ Yet you are a man, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god(Behold, you are wiser than Daniel! There is no secret that can be hidden from you!With your wisdom and your understanding You have gained riches for yourself, And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches, And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),”‘Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you, The most terrible of the nations; And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, And defile your splendor.They shall throw you down into the Pit, And you shall die the death of the slain In the midst of the seas.“Will you still say before him who slays you, ‘I am a god’? But you shall be a man, and not a god, In the hand of him who slays you.You shall die the death of the uncircumcised By the hand of aliens; For I have spoken,” says the Lord God.’ ”Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying,“Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.“You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.“By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.“You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever.”’ ” - Ezekiel 28:2-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...9&version=NKJV

    AND

    And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. - Luke 10:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

    AND

    And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. - Revelation 12:7-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...9&version=NKJV

    --------

    NOTE: The "firmament called Heaven" is not talking about the sky or the atmosphere. It's talking about the firmament (Hebrew: raqia) that God created in the midst of the waters of Genesis 1:2. Contrast that with the "firmament of the heavens," which is talking about the sky or atmosphere.

    NOTE: Eden is described as having only one entrance. The only way this would be possible is if it were surrounded by a wall of impassable mountains. God cast Satan out of the "mountain of God."

    NOTE: in the passage from Revelation, the devil was cast not "down to the earth," but simply "to the earth." This COULD be interpreted as him being cast out of the Garden to the earth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Were Adam and Eve to multiply before, or after, they were created in Gen 2?

    As you keep saying (and as I happen to agree with), Genesis 1 provides a summary of events that happened during the creation week, whereas Genesis 2 goes back over and provides details on some of those events.

    Namely, the creation of man.

    Adam and Eve were created on Day 6, which event is described generally in Genesis 1, and in more detail in Genesis 2.

    So, to respond to your question appropriately, they were created in both Genesis 1 AND Genesis 2 (but not created twice), simply because, as you say, Genesis 2 is simply a retelling, with more detail, of day 6 of Genesis 1,

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    As you keep saying (and as I happen to agree with), Genesis 1 provides a summary of events that happened during the creation week, whereas Genesis 2 goes back over and provides details on some of those events.

    Namely, the creation of man.

    Adam and Eve were created on Day 6, which event is described generally in Genesis 1, and in more detail in Genesis 2.

    So, to respond to your question appropriately, they were created in both Genesis 1 AND Genesis 2 (but not created twice), simply because, as you say, Genesis 2 is simply a retelling, with more detail, of day 6 of Genesis 1,

    And...

    Adam & Eve do not procreate until Gen 4, not Gen 1.

    Gen two, onward, clearly indicates the passage of much time, not a 24 hr period of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post

    NOTE: in the passage from Revelation, the devil was cast not "down to the earth," but simply "to the earth." This COULD be interpreted as him being cast out of the Garden to the earth.
    If the garden is already on earth, then he would already be on earth, and hence, he would NOT need to be cast to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Ezekiel describes Lucifer (through his description of the King of Tyre) as falling from Eden, the Garden of God.
    'falling'...?

    If he was already upon the earth, as you claim, then why the need to fall to it?

    Further, the term used in Eze 28.16, 'mehar', literally means 'mountain'.

    Can you please show us where mountains exist in the garden of Eden?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    And...

    Adam & Eve do not procreate until Gen 4, not Gen 1.
    So?

    Gen two, onward, clearly indicates the passage of much time,
    How much time do you think passed between God's command to Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply and Adam and Eve doing so?

    A day?
    A week?
    A month?
    A year?
    10 years?

    Longer?

    They were mature enough for God to tell them to do so, how long do you think Adam could have held out? I mean, she was the most beautiful woman on earth! Not to mention she was also his wife...

    not a 24 hr period of time.
    Where did I (or anyone here, for that matter) ever say that it was 24 hours between God's command to multiply and Adam and Eve doing so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    If the garden is already on earth, then he would already be on earth, and hence, he would NOT need to be cast to it.
    Heaven was on the earth.

    Being cast from the garden would be no different than being kicked out of a convenience store.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    'falling'...?

    If he was already upon the earth, as you claim, then why the need to fall to it?
    Do you think that Adam and Eve literally fell to the ground when they sinned? Or could "falling" in this context refer to a figure of speech?

    Further, the term used in Eze 28.16, 'mehar', literally means 'mountain'.
    Yes, that's what I said. A mountain.

    Can you please show us where mountains exist in the garden of Eden?
    I recommend you read the passage again, paying closer attention to Ezekiel's description of the garden.

    Also, read chapter 31 for a description of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which is described as being cut down, so that its branches fell on the mountains (remember, this tree was in the MIDDLE of the Garden, so for it's branches to fall on the mountains, it must have been HUGE, and the passage describes it as such).

    How do you keep a spring of water as large as the one described in the center of the Garden from having its waters split up immediately upon coming out of the ground?

    You form a channel (preferably with hills on either side) and have it flow downhill in only one direction.

    As I said above, Eden is described as having only ONE entrance/exit, and it's the same place where the river exits the garden, and then splits into four (still large) smaller rivers.

    The only way possible for there to be only one entrance and to have river that large split up only after reaching that entrance is for the garden to be nestled in a valley, which would be far better to show off the beauty of the garden which God made.

    Or do you think that the garden of eden was flat, so that it's beauty was only visible from up high?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    So?



    How much time do you think passed between God's command to Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply and Adam and Eve doing so?

    A day?
    A week?
    A month?
    A year?
    10 years?

    Longer?

    They were mature enough for God to tell them to do so, how long do you think Adam could have held out? I mean, she was the most beautiful woman on earth! Not to mention she was also his wife...



    Where did I (or anyone here, for that matter) ever say that it was 24 hours between God's command to multiply and Adam and Eve doing so?
    Gen 2, onward, proves that creation 'day' 6 is a period of time, not 24 hrs, as detailed by the copious amounts of activity detailed in the text.

    Gen 1 is a sequence of events, denoting epochs of time up to the creation of mankind.

    Both Adam and Eve needed to be raised from the ground up.

    Neither was created as an adult.

    And Yahweh Elohim built (way·yi·ḇen) the side which He had taken from the man into a woman, and brought her (way·ḇi·’e·hā) to the man. And the man said, This now at last( hap·pa·‘am) is bone from my bones, and flesh from my flesh. For this shall be called Woman, because this has been taken out of man. (Gen 2.22 – 23)

    As the first human clone, three things in these two passages indicate that Eve was created as a child needing to be raised separate from Adam before she was presented back as an age-appropriate mate.

    • The Hebrew verb ‘banah’, employed for the creation of Eve, carries with it the meaning to ‘have children’ and ‘obtain children’.

    • The Hebrew verb ‘bo’ informs the reader that after Eve was created from Adam, she then had to be brought back to Adam because she was not with Adam. If Eve had been created as a same-age-adult as Adam, then why would Adam have not woken up with Eve by his side to begin with?

    • The exclamation ‘hap·pa·‘am’ (at last!) by Adam indicates that he had been waiting for his mate for a very long time. ‘Paam’ carries with it the definition of ‘annual’ and ‘time’, indicating long duration.

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