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Thread: NT verses to churches threaten loss of salvation

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZacharyB View Post
    I have warned you before that you have NO comprehension
    of what the NT word "pisteou" (believe) really means.
    Then all of the Greek experts are wrong and only you are right!

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    This particular quarrel has become convoluted.
    It became convolted when you mis-represented the teaching of Darby, Scofield and Chafer.

    Once again, I challenge you to quote any of those men denying that the believing remnant out of Israel become members of the Body of Christ.

    That is what you asserted now either quote them saying that the believing remnant were not made members of the Body of Christ or admit that you mis-represented their teaching.

    Show us your heart is in the right place and that you want to treat others honestly, the same way that you want to be treated. "
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; March 24th, 2019 at 06:16 PM.

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    "Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    This particular quarrel has become convoluted.
    It became convolted when you mis-represented the teaching of Darby, Scofield and Chafer.

    Once again, I challenge you to quote any of those men denying that the believing remnant out of Israel become members of the Body of Christ.

    That is what you asserted now either quote them saying that the believing remnant were not made members of the Body of Christ or admit that you mis-represented their teaching.

    Show us your heart is in the right place and that you want to treat others honestly, the same way that you want to be treated. "

    The Two Peoples of God and Two Different Programs doctrine of dispensationalism is fundamental to that theology. And that Two Peoples-Two Programs is stated by the Founders, John Darby and Lewis S. Chafer, and statements with the same meaning are available by other dispensationalist leaders.

    The question is what do the Founders of dispensationalism mean by Israel?

    The "Right Dividing" of dispensationalism makes a separation between whatever it is they call Israel and what they mean by the Church.

    "...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

    J. Dwight Pentecost in his
    book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan." page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965.

    In order to be consistent, then dispensationalists would have to teach that in Romans 11:12-24, the "wild Olive Tree, which represents Gentile believers, is "rightly divided" apart forever from the "good olive tree," which represents the Israel of dispensationalism. The "good Olive Tree is found in Romans 11: 24.

    But here is the problem with separating the "Wild Olive Tree" of Romans 11: 17 and Romans 11: 24 from the "Good Olive Tree" in Romans 11: 24: "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" Romans 11: 17-20

    In metaphoric language Paul is saying in Romans 11: 17-20 that believing Gentiles are joined together with believing Jews to make a united group of the elect, the saved of God.

    So, in postulating that the Israel of dispensationalism, which is apparently defined as the multitude of the physical bloodline of Israel, is "rightly divided" from the Church, as Gentle believers, dispensationalism contradicts Romans 11: 17-20

    But the argument here is apparently about whether the Founders of dispensationalism postulated a theology with two peoples of God, and two programs, in which what they mean by Israel is kept entirely separate from the Gentile Church.

    The answer is that the Founders do postulate such a two people-two program theology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    The answer is that the Founders do postulate such a two people-two program theology.
    You cannot grasp the simple principle that the divine plan toward Israel and the divine plan toward the Body of Christ are mutually exclusive.

    When the LORD's plan toward Israel was in force the children of Israel were a speacial people unto the LORD, above all people who are on the face of the earth (Deut.7:6).

    But during the LORD's program toward the Body of Christ there are no special people unto the LORD except for the members of the Body of Christ. And there there is neither Jew nor Greek because all nationalities are on the same level (Gal.3:24).

    So the two divine programs are mutually exclusive because when the divine plan toward the Body is in effect the children of Israel are no longer a special to the LORD because now they are on the same level as believers of all nationalities.

    Now I will ask you to cease from saying things which are not true about the teachings of Darby, Scofield and Chafer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You cannot grasp the simple principle that the divine plan toward Israel and the divine plan toward the Body of Christ are mutually exclusive.
    And this is the same Jerry that harangues me constantly, telling me that the 12 apostles are in the body of Christ.

    Jerry, how can they (the 12) be included in two mutually exclusive divine plans?
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Why are almost all Christian forums dominated by dispensationalists? And why are so many dispensationalists so argumentative?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    And this is the same Jerry that harangues me constantly, telling me that the 12 apostles are in the body of Christ.

    Jerry, how can they (the 12) be included in two mutually exclusive divine plans?
    When Israel was temporarily set aside then the remnant out of that nation were made members of the Body of Christ. Can you not even understand that the believing remnant out of Israel were baptized into the Body of Christ despite what Paul said in the following passage?:

    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    When Israel was temporarily set aside then the remnant out of that nation were made members of the Body of Christ. Can you not even understand that the believing remnant out of Israel were baptized into the Body of Christ despite what Paul said in the following passage?:
    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
    So according to you .... they (the 12 and the rest of the remnant) will be removed from the body of Christ and put back in "the divine plan for Israel" which is "mutually exclusive" from the "divine plan for the body of Christ" when Christ returns to establish His kingdom?

    Your story just gets crazier the more you post about it.

    P.S. I notice how you wrongly call them "the believing remnant OUT OF Israel" instead "the believing remnant OF Israel", which what they really were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    So according to you .... they (the 12 and the rest of the remnant) will be removed from the body of Christ and put back in "the divine plan for Israel" which is "mutually exclusive" from the "divine plan for the body of Christ" when Christ returns to establish His kingdom?
    I never said that. You can't even understand Paul's simple words here that makes it plain that the believing remnant out of Israel were made members of the Body of Christ and that is why you just IGNORE what Paul wrote:

    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
    (1 Cor.12:13).

    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    I notice how you wrongly call them "the believing remnant OUT OF Israel" instead "the believing remnant OF Israel", which what they really were.
    So you have been able to trick your mind into believing that the remnant remained "of" Israel after that nation was temporarily set aside!

    According to you they went down with a sinking ship!

    You are so uninformed that you cannot even understand that one of the two groups of which Paul speaks in the following passage is the believing remnant:

    "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).

    Do you deny that one of the two groups spoken of in this passage was the remnant of which Paul referred to at Romans 11:5? If your answer is "yes" then please identify the two groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I never said that. You can't even understand Paul's simple words here that makes it plain that the believing remnant out of Israel were made members of the Body of Christ and that is why you just IGNORE what Paul wrote:

    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
    (1 Cor.12:13).

    So you have been able to trick your mind into believing that the remnant remained "of" Israel after that nation was temporarily set aside!

    According to you they went down with a sinking ship!

    You are so uninformed that you cannot even understand that one of the two groups of which Paul speaks in the following passage is the believing remnant:
    "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).

    Do you deny that one of the two groups spoken of in this passage was the remnant of which Paul referred to at Romans 11:5? If your answer is "yes" then please identify the two groups.
    Until you can explain yourself better, I cannot move forward.
    • You say that there are two mutually exclusive divine plans (DP).
    • You say that the 12 were in the one for Israel.
    • Then you claim that they were moved into the one for the body of Christ.
    • Now we know that the DP for Israel has not been completed at the present time and will have a future resumption.
    • So the question is: Will they be moved back into the one for Israel at a later time, since the two DP's are mutually exclusive?
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Until you can explain yourself better, I cannot move forward.

    You say that there are two mutually exclusive divine plans (DP).
    When the DP toward Israel was in effect the Israelites were a special people unto the LORD. But in the DP toward the Body of Christ the only special people are those in the Body, and there the Israelites are on the same level as believers belonging to other nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    You say that the 12 were in the one for Israel.
    Then you claim that they were moved into the one for the body of Christ.
    Yes, just like Paul was. After the nation of Israel was temporarily set aside the Twelve were baptized into the Body of Christ just like Paul was:

    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Now we know that the DP for Israel has not been completed at the present time and will have a future resumption.

    So the question is: Will they be moved back into the one for Israel at a later time, since the two DP's are mutually exclusive?
    No, they will not be moved back.

    Now that I have answered your questions it is time for you to answer mine. Do you deny that one of the two groups spoken of in the following passage was the remnant of which Paul referred to at Romans 11:5? If your answer is "yes" then please identify the two groups.

    "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).

    It is your turn to answer my questions. If you have any further questions I will answer them but not until after you answer mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    No, they will not be moved back.
    So then you must believe that the Lord Jesus Christ lied when He told them that they would sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Their calling was for Israel and the twelve tribes. Their kingdom ... etc. etc. etc.

    That you think that their calling was changed is nonsense.
    Last edited by Right Divider; March 25th, 2019 at 08:29 PM. Reason: typo
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    So then you must believe that the Lord Jesus Christ lied when He told them that they would sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
    You refuse to answer my questions. Why is that since you think you are able to judge others about their beliefs which contradict yours?

    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Their calling was for Israel and the twelve tribes. Their kingdom ... etc. etc. etc.

    That you think that their calling was changed is nonsense.
    What is nonsense is your inability to tell the difference between the calling of "individual" Jews and the calling of the "nation" of Israel.

    Now I will answer your point despite the fact that you refused to answer me so everyone can see that you have no answers which you can provide to defend your false teaching.

    Those in the Body of Christ will return with the Lord Jesus when he returns to the earth to set up His kingdom because the Apostle Paul says that after the saints are caught up to meet the Lord in theair they will be with Him forever:

    "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:17).

    Then those in the Body of Christ will judge the world (1 Cor.6:2). So those in the Body of Christ will judge those who will be in the Messianic kingdom who are not members of the Body of Christ. And the Twelve will also judge the twelve tribes who will not be in the Body of Christ.

    Now that I have answered your point again it is time for you to answer mine. Do you deny that one of the two groups spoken of in the following passage was the remnant of which Paul referred to at Romans 11:5? If your answer is "yes" then please identify the two groups.

    "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"
    (Eph.2:13-16).

    Let me give you a hint:

    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
    (1 Cor.12:13).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You refuse to answer my questions. Why is that since you think you are able to judge others about their beliefs which contradict yours?
    Judge Jerry judges all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    What is nonsense is your inability to tell the difference between the calling of "individual" Jews and the calling of the "nation" of Israel.
    So you are trying to say that THEIR (the 12) calling was NOT attached intimately to THEIR TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL? Jerry, no matter how hard you try it is just foolishness to think THEIR God given responsibility to sit on TWELVE thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL is somehow divorced from THEIR NATION.

    And you can keep trying to FORCE 1 Cor 12:13 into your story, but you simply do not understand where it fits.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    "When the DP toward Israel was in effect the Israelites were a special people unto the LORD. But in the DP toward the Body of Christ the only special people are those in the Body, and there the Israelites are on the same level as believers belonging to other nations."

    It looks like "DP" is dispensation.

    There is nothing in the New Testament on which this statement can be based. The question then, is whether the prophecies on the restoration of Israel in the Old Testament support such an idea - and the question is whether Old Testament prophecies on the restoration of physical Israel can be made to apply in the New Covenant.

    Acts 15: 14-18 deals with the interpretation of Old Testament prophecies in the New Covenant on the restoration of physical Israel. James quotes Amos 9: 11-12, apparently from the Septuagint in Acts 15: 16-18. And James says in Acts 15: 1, "And to this agree the words of the prophets," He does not say prophet, that is, only Amos, but prophets, plural. To what do the prophets agree? Acts 15: 14 answers this question. The prophets on the restoration of physical Israel agree that God was to take out a people for himself from the Gentiles.

    Amos 9: 11-12 in the Septuagint says "In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and will rebuild the ruins of it, and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken down, and will build it up as in the ancient days: 12 that the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord who does all these things."

    The Masoretic Hebrew Text for Amos 9: 11-12 says "In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
    12. That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this."

    The Masoretic Hebrew text created between the 7th and 10th centuries A.D. by Rabbinic Judaism does not state clearly that "the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord." as does the Septuagint translated from an earlier Hebrew text.

    Jeremiah 18: 1-6 is a prophecy on the restoration of Israel. "The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
    2. Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
    3. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
    4. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
    5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
    6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

    Jeremiah 18: 1-6 says God was to remake Israel, not just restore Israel to its condition at some point in its historical past. Jeremiah 18: 1-6 does not say how God was to remake Israel. But this prophecy is supported by II Kings 21: 13 and Isaiah 29: 16.

    "And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down." II Kings 21: 13

    "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?" Isaiah 29: 16
    Last edited by northwye; March 26th, 2019 at 10:13 AM.

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