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Thread: The Word of God?

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post

    The scriptures teach that God is a God of love and peace. That is how God desires to be represented, whether OT or NT. God engages in war and judgement - but does not desire these things.
    Thanks for the answer. The bible disagrees with you. Here's a verse from 1 Samuel 2:25

    "Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father, because the Lord desired to kill them."

    So, you say God doesn't desire these things, but the bible says he does. In light of this, perhaps its best if you stop accusing me of intellectual dishonesty and point that crooked finger at yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Thanks for the answer. The bible disagrees with you. Here's a verse from 1 Samuel 2:25

    "Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father, because the Lord desired to kill them."

    So, you say God doesn't desire these things, but the bible says he does. In light of this, perhaps its best if you stop accusing me of intellectual dishonesty and point that crooked finger at yourself?
    It is not sufficient to pull out a single verse and use that as the basis for understanding the Lord - whether OT or NT. This verse in particular isn't speaking of God's general desires/will, but is a specific instance where God has determined that these people are to be judged for their sins. I've already noted that God does engage in judgement and war - it's not surprising to anyone that you'd find particular instances where God has decided to engage in such. In this case the people being judged are priests who were very corrupt and abusing their position as representatives of God - a big no, no.

    As Jesus rebuked the Pharisees concerning the Sabbath, so I say to you:
    John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.

    God is very forgiving, whether NT or OT, but there are limits. Eventually God will decide that enough is enough and decide to judge people for their sins. Here's a powerful verse on the matter from Isaiah 1:


    Isaiah 1:10-20 Hear the word of the Lord,
    You rulers of Sodom;
    Give ear to the instruction of our God,
    You people of Gomorrah.
    11
    “What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?”
    Says the Lord.
    “I [d]have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
    And the fat of fed cattle;
    And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
    12
    “When you come to appear before Me,
    Who requires [e]of you this trampling of My courts?
    13
    “Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
    Incense is an abomination to Me.
    New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies—
    I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
    14
    “I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
    They have become a burden to Me;
    I am weary of bearing them.
    15
    “So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
    I will hide My eyes from you;
    Yes, even though you multiply prayers,
    I will not listen.
    Your hands are [f]covered with blood.

    16
    “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
    Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
    Cease to do evil,
    17
    Learn to do good;
    Seek justice,
    Reprove the ruthless,
    [g]Defend the orphan,
    Plead for the widow.

    18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
    Says the Lord,
    “Though your sins are as scarlet,
    They will be as white as snow;
    Though they are red like crimson,
    They will be like wool.

    19
    “If you consent and obey,
    You will eat the best of the land;
    20
    “But if you refuse and rebel,
    You will be devoured by the sword.”
    Truly, the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

    Indeed, this is the general position of God throughout the scriptures, OT and NT: do what is right and good and you shall live, persist in doing evil and you will die. So stop being arrogant, greedy, selfish individuals and do what is right already so that you can live.

    Deutoronomy 30:15-20 “See, I have set before you today life and [t]prosperity, and death and [u]adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter [v]and possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your [w]descendants, 20 by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for [x]this is your life and the length of your days, [y]that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

    Romans 2:6-10 [God] will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress [e]for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

    If God's desire was to judge people then he wouldn't have established a means for people to be forgiven. Hence the Law prescribes all kinds of sacrifices and festivals to address the people's sins so that they may repent and be forgiven. Hence God is constantly attempting to set Israel in the right path and away from sin. But there are limits and God will choose to engage in judgement when people are intent on sinning and refuse to repent and do what is right.

    In summary - stop cherry picking scriptures and do some studying. You are ignorant of what the scriptures teach.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Do you think God is pleased by the slaughter of innocent children and animals?
    Is there such a thing as innocent children and animals?

    For that matter, receiving God's goodness is contingent upon believing God. Mark 9:23

    An animal is merely an animal.

    Children are the responsibility of their parents.

    If parents reject God, the children miss out.

    Hebrews 2:14 tells us who has the power of death. the Devil does

    So for people to claim that God is all powerful is error. God does not murder innocents, the Devil does

    That is why we read the Bible, to learn, not as some, who are hell bent on ignorantly criticizing something they know little or nothing about
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    Is there such a thing as innocent children and animals?
    That you would even ask this question scares me.

    I mean, I just almost can't even understand how a person could think in such a way as to be able to allow that question to come out of their mouth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    It is not sufficient to pull out a single verse and use that as the basis for understanding the Lord - whether OT or NT.
    Similarly, it is not OK to claim that the whole Bible is the Word of God, and then treat individual verses as they are not.

    So you wear a wedding ring? If so, I guess your wedding ring is made of gold. You have a gold ring. You don't have a gold ring that is part gold and part aluminum.

    So, if the Bible is God's word, then it's pure all the way through. Every time I post a verse, you go about the business of trying to explain it away, as if it doesn't say what it says.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    That you would even ask this question scares me.

    I mean, I just almost can't even understand how a person could think in such a way as to be able to allow that question to come out of their mouth.
    All people are dead in trespasses and sin without God and without hope in this world before receiving salvation. See Ephesians 2.

    That includes little children who are not saved and do not have a believing parent.

    Thus their lives are subject to the whims of the Devil the thief of John 10:10.

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    A dog named Balto saved the town of Nome in 1925, and I bet he’s more righteous than most humans.

    How someone could believe that “loving God” would damn an animal or child to hell is just plain crazy. IMHO.

    Your religion has messed you up psychologically. And you call yourself a Christian?

    Not even Jesus believed that nonsense. He said children are saved creations of God who’s angels see the face of their FATHER in Heaven.

    Check yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Similarly, it is not OK to claim that the whole Bible is the Word of God, and then treat individual verses as they are not.

    So you wear a wedding ring? If so, I guess your wedding ring is made of gold. You have a gold ring. You don't have a gold ring that is part gold and part aluminum.

    So, if the Bible is God's word, then it's pure all the way through. Every time I post a verse, you go about the business of trying to explain it away, as if it doesn't say what it says.
    I agree that you need to acknowledge all verses. However, no verse stands on its own - everything must be read and interpreted in context. Indeed, one of the big things that Christ criticized the Pharisees over in the NT was their overly literal interpretation of the Law, ignoring the intent, the Spirit of the Law. In this case, this verse must be addressed in light of the abundant testimony of scripture that God's inner most desire is not for us to suffer or face justice - he desires mercy, he desires that we do what is right, he desires that we live.

    But the world isn't perfect; man is sinful. As such, the perfect ideals and scenarios that God puts forth are frequently unmet - and he adjusts to a less desirable position to meet us where we are at. For example: God doesn't desire divorce, but the Law permits it vs trying to force us to stay together. God originally was going to take all the first born of Israel to serve him - but after the Golden Calf incident he instead took the tribe of Levi to serve in their place, etc.

    Justice and Judgement are the same. They aren't the ideal - they aren't what God truly desires. However, when faced with the unrepentant sins of man, God adjusts to meet us where we are at - and that means justice and judgement. Within this less than ideal scenario, justice and judgement become the best response - and so God is said to desire it. But this isn't God's ideal - it isn't what he desires in his heart of hearts.

    Hosea 6:6-7 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. 7 As at Adam,[b] they have broken the covenant; they were unfaithful to me there.

    James 2:12-13 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

    As far as your argument that the bible needs to be pure all the way through - that is simply false. The scriptures were/are written, transcribed, translated, canonized, and interpreted by fallible men. Of course the scriptures aren't without blemish - though there are also far more historical records to validate and critique the scriptures with than any other ancient document in existence. In some cases these flaws do have an impact on theological debates - but not at the level were discussing things at.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Thank you for your response glorydaz. I shortened it a touch for space. First, I would like to disagree with your first statement. The Holy Bible does not contain the words of God to all men. In the case of the Old Testament, specifically the Laws of Moses.....they were not intended for all men. Moses made it clear on a number of occasions that the words of this law were intended for the Hebrews only. I'll just cite one example.

    "These are the words of the covenant which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb."

    Next, we have scientific evidence of people living all around the planet at the time of this Bible writing, especially in North and South America, Australia, Europe, Asia, etc.... and these people not only never heard these words, but obviously were not the intended audience. So, that is my disagreement with your first point that the bible contains the words of God for all men.
    Where are you getting the reference in bold from? I thought you said some where on this thread that the entire Bible has to pure like a ring of gold.

    So why you couldn't remember:

    "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law." (Romans 2:14)

    And you also forgat

    "Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the laws requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
    (Romans 2:25-27)

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0de View Post
    Where are you getting the reference in bold from? I thought you said some where on this thread that the entire Bible has to pure like a ring of gold.

    So why you couldn't remember:

    "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law." (Romans 2:14)

    And you also forgat

    "Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
    (Romans 2:25-27)
    You also forget this:

    "A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God." (Romans 2:28-29)

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    Justice and Judgement are the same.
    NO they are not.

    As far as your argument that the bible needs to be pure all the way through - that is simply false. The scriptures were/are written, transcribed, translated, canonized, and interpreted by fallible men. Of course the scriptures aren't without blemish - though there are also far more historical records to validate and critique the scriptures with than any other ancient document in existence. In some cases these flaws do have an impact on theological debates - but not at the level were discussing things at.
    When you make a post as large as this one I'm quoting, and making so many points simultaneously, it should come as no surprise that I don't address everything you said.

    Your first point is that the bible must be read and considered in its entirety with verses in context. Well duh. OK. That's a given. I don't even understand why that point need be established.

    It doesn't matter if you take the whole bible and any verse under discussion in context or not, the meaning and intent is obvious.

    For example, here in 1 Samuel chapter 15 it says......"Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

    OK. That is the point. NOw, go read the full chapter in context, and you can see that it claims God is speaking to Saul through the prophet Samuel, and commanding him and the army to go completely slaughter everything. In other words, go commit genocide, an atrocity even worse than what the Nazi's did to the Jews in WWII because the Nazi's didn't go about killing all the animals.

    You contrast this with your claim that God is the same in the OT and the NT and it doesn't work. The NT calls God the God of Love and Peace. The God of love and Peace does not call people to go slaughter innocent children, and all people and animals. That's the exact opposite of what a "God of Love and Peace" would do.

    NOw, on to your first point. That judgement and justice are the same thing. They are not. Justice is right behavior. Proper action. Just. To do well. To be moral, and righteous is what a just person is. Slaughtering innocent beings is not just or right. It is an evil, it is a wrong. If you think it's right, then you are no different from Muslim Terrorists who slaughter innocent people in the name of their "God." In fact, one could argue the same "God" of the bible as they believe they serve the God of Abraham just as Christians do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    NO they are not.



    When you make a post as large as this one I'm quoting, and making so many points simultaneously, it should come as no surprise that I don't address everything you said.

    Your first point is that the bible must be read and considered in its entirety with verses in context. Well duh. OK. That's a given. I don't even understand why that point need be established.

    It doesn't matter if you take the whole bible and any verse under discussion in context or not, the meaning and intent is obvious.

    For example, here in 1 Samuel chapter 15 it says......"Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”

    OK. That is the point. NOw, go read the full chapter in context, and you can see that it claims God is speaking to Saul through the prophet Samuel, and commanding him and the army to go completely slaughter everything. In other words, go commit genocide, an atrocity even worse than what the Nazi's did to the Jews in WWII because the Nazi's didn't go about killing all the animals.

    You contrast this with your claim that God is the same in the OT and the NT and it doesn't work. The NT calls God the God of Love and Peace. The God of love and Peace does not call people to go slaughter innocent children, and all people and animals. That's the exact opposite of what a "God of Love and Peace" would do.

    NOw, on to your first point. That judgement and justice are the same thing. They are not. Justice is right behavior. Proper action. Just. To do well. To be moral, and righteous is what a just person is. Slaughtering innocent beings is not just or right. It is an evil, it is a wrong. If you think it's right, then you are no different from Muslim Terrorists who slaughter innocent people in the name of their "God." In fact, one could argue the same "God" of the bible as they believe they serve the God of Abraham just as Christians do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0de View Post
    Where are you getting the reference in bold from? I thought you said some where on this thread that the entire Bible has to pure like a ring of gold.

    So why you couldn't remember:

    "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law." (Romans 2:14)

    And you also forgat

    "Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the laws requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
    (Romans 2:25-27)
    You quoted two references in bold. The first reference is from the bible itself. Several times it is states that the Laws of Moses were for the Jews only. Check Exodus 19.

    Here in Exodus 25 "You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you. 22 And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, about everything which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel."

    Key words "Children of Israel." That's who the law was given to. No one else.

    "Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.

    18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God."

    The other reference you bolded comes from the science of archaeology. That is how we know where people lived and when, in conjunction with the other branches of science that work in this regard.

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    But Why?

    "When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!"
    (Deuteronomy 25:19)

    I don't know. And the world may never now. But it is noy for you to say all children and animals. This is only in reference to Amalek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    How is it possible to love your neighbor, if you don't try to prevent them from being murdered by a murderer?
    In other words, what you're saying is that it's possible to love your enemies while killing them if it is in the prevention of a crime or in self-defense?

    OK....but Jesus himself said this...."But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

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