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Thread: Saved by Grace or/and by Works

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    Saved by Grace or/and by Works

    As my religion goes we believe people are saved by both God(Whom I call Heavenly Father)'s grace and our works. We believe all people can live again, but the kingdom they reside in, in Heaven is based on their works. I am curious about what other people think about this topic and which other religions share this belief.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolguar View Post
    As my religion goes we believe people are saved by both God(Whom I call Heavenly Father)'s grace and our works. We believe all people can live again, but the kingdom they reside in, in Heaven is based on their works. I am curious about what other people think about this topic and which other religions share this belief.

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    Ephesians 2:8-9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    What almost every Christian fails to realize is that fulfillment of the Law - by us - is an essential component of the New Covenant. Take a look at the promise of the New Covenant:

    Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
    “when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
    32
    It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
    when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
    because they broke my covenant,
    though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
    declares the Lord.
    33
    “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
    after that time,” declares the Lord.
    “I will put my law in their minds
    and write it on their hearts.

    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.

    34
    No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
    because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest,”
    declares the Lord.
    “For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.”


    So under the New Covenant, God's Law is written directly on our minds and hearts (vs the Mosaic Covenant, where God wrote on external stone tablets).

    In addition to this, Christ is quite explicit that the Law isn't going anywhere - and condemns anyone who teaches otherwise:

    Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


    So God's Law serves as the very foundation of the New Covenant, and Christ was quite clear that nothing in the Law was going away. Indeed, in the Great Commission Christ tells us to go and teach others to obey the commandments:

    Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    Even Paul, who people fail to understand and constantly misquote, says that he is under God's Law.


    Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

    Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

    Romans 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

    To those who say that it is impossible to fulfill God's Law, that is simply untrue. God was quite clear from the outset that it was within our grasp to keep the Law.


    Deuteronomy 30:11-20 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

    15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

    17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

    19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    Christ and his followers were quite clear that Love is the fulfillment of the Law. So central is love to all of this that God is himself said to be love.


    Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

    1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

    Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    So then, through love we fulfill the Law and are known by God. On the other hand, those who do not love are not known by God - and these he casts out saying "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers."
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Ephesians 2:8-9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
    I see what you mean there. Here are a few things I found on the subject.

    (King James Version)
    Works: Matt. 5:16; Matt. 7:21; Matt. 10:22; James 2:14-36

    Grace: John 1:17; Acts 15:11; Rom. 3: 23-24; Eph. 2: 8-9

    Both: 2 Ne. 10:24; 2 Me. 25:23; Mosiah 13:28; Alma 42:23; Moro. 10: 32-33


    "We receive God's grace because of the Atonement. We can’t raise ourselves from the dead, so the Resurrection is an example of His grace. We can’t purify ourselves from sin, so the Lord’s forgiveness is another example of grace. But before He will forgive us, we must repent—that’s our part, our works.

    Besides repentance, our works also include receiving ordinances, keeping covenants, and serving others. While these works are necessary for salvation, they aren’t sufficient. They are not enough because we can’t live perfect lives, but we can do our best to live righteously. By doing so, we invite the Lord’s grace into our lives and qualify for the gift of salvation." (ChurchofJesusChrist.org)


    Source:
    https://www.lds.org/study/new-era/20...works?lang=eng







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    "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). As a Christian my faith makes me want to do good things. However, none of those works will buy my way into heaven. The base of those works must be charity or they mean nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolguar View Post
    But before He will forgive us, we must repent—that’s our part, our works.
    Nope. That would make salvation something you acquire by WORKS. Repentance is God's Gift.
    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    Nope. That would make salvation something you acquire by WORKS. Repentance is God's Gift.
    1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

    Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    Nope. That would make salvation something you acquire by WORKS. Repentance is God's Gift.
    Repentance is God's gift. I think you are confusing immortality with eternal life/salvation. Everyone will gain immortality. That is God's grace. If God's grace is all we need then why would he ask us to keep his commandments. He knows we're not perfect, so by our works those who show they love God have the opportunity of living with God in the next life. Those who didn't know him receive his grace and are in a slightly higher kingdom of glory than those who reject him. Everyone receives immortality, but it's similar the parable of the ten talents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolguar View Post
    Repentance is God's gift. I think you are confusing immortality with eternal life/salvation. Everyone will gain immortality. That is God's grace. If God's grace is all we need then why would he ask us to keep his commandments. He knows we're not perfect, so by our works those who show they love God have the opportunity of living with God in the next life. Those who didn't know him receive his grace and are in a slightly higher kingdom of glory than those who reject him. Everyone receives immortality, but it's similar the parable of the ten talents.

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    This is incorrect. Eternal life is the reward for good deeds.

    Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    This is incorrect. Eternal life is the reward for good deeds.

    Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
    I love that quote and I completely agree with you. Eternal Life is the reward for good deeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    What almost every Christian fails to realize is that fulfillment of the Law - by us - is an essential component of the New Covenant. Take a look at the promise of the New Covenant:

    Spoiler
    Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
    “when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
    32
    It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
    when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
    because they broke my covenant,
    though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
    declares the Lord.
    33
    “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
    after that time,” declares the Lord.
    “I will put my law in their minds
    and write it on their hearts.

    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.

    34
    No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
    because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest,”
    declares the Lord.
    “For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.”


    So under the New Covenant, God's Law is written directly on our minds and hearts (vs the Mosaic Covenant, where God wrote on external stone tablets).

    In addition to this, Christ is quite explicit that the Law isn't going anywhere - and condemns anyone who teaches otherwise:

    Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


    So God's Law serves as the very foundation of the New Covenant, and Christ was quite clear that nothing in the Law was going away. Indeed, in the Great Commission Christ tells us to go and teach others to obey the commandments:

    Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    Even Paul, who people fail to understand and constantly misquote, says that he is under God's Law.


    Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

    Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

    Romans 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

    To those who say that it is impossible to fulfill God's Law, that is simply untrue. God was quite clear from the outset that it was within our grasp to keep the Law.


    Deuteronomy 30:11-20 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

    15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

    17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

    19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    Christ and his followers were quite clear that Love is the fulfillment of the Law. So central is love to all of this that God is himself said to be love.


    Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

    1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

    Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    So then, through love we fulfill the Law and are known by God. On the other hand, those who do not love are not known by God - and these he casts out saying "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers."
    Rather, the Lord Jesus Christ has fulfilled the law IN US during this dispensation of Grace.

    Romans 8:2-4 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolguar View Post
    I love that quote and I completely agree with you. Eternal Life is the reward for good deeds.

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    No, eternal life is a GIFT....not a reward.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    And why?

    Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


    CHRIST GETS ALL THE GLORY, and no man can boast.


    You need to rethink what you believe Paul is saying in Romans 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    Nope. That would make salvation something you acquire by WORKS. Repentance is God's Gift.
    Repentance? Scripture?

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    Over 1000 post club csuguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Rather, the Lord Jesus Christ has fulfilled the law IN US during this dispensation of Grace.

    Romans 8:2-4 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    This verses doesn't agree with your position up at the top. It doesn't say that Jesus fulfilled the law in us (ie, for us) such that we don't have to do anything anymore (else there would be no judgement). What it says is that Jesus enabled those of us who walk after the Spirit to fulfill the law. Hence the passage continues...

    Romans 8:5-8 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    Those who walk in the Spirit are those who have set their minds on things of the Spirit. Those with minds set on the flesh are hostile to God and will not subject themselves to the law of God. Only by focusing on the things of the Spirit do we become capable of fulfilling and rejoicing in God's Law.

    Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law

    1 Corinthians 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

    Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

    Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    Good verse - but it doesn't make your case. Yes, Jesus' sacrifice was a mercy that we did not earn - none of us. However, the story doesn't end there. There is still a judgement, people will still be cast down and not receive eternal life. There is more going on, more that is required of us to receive eternal life. As I noted in my earlier post - we both fulfill the Law and are known by God via Love. Those who do not fulfill the Law, who do not love, are not known by God and will be cast out.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    This verses doesn't agree with your position up at the top. It doesn't say that Jesus fulfilled the law in us (ie, for us) such that we don't have to do anything anymore (else there would be no judgement). What it says is that Jesus enabled those of us who walk after the Spirit to fulfill the law. Hence the passage continues...

    Before you continue... Paul says quite clearly, there is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus, which makes it clear there will be no judgement for those IN CHRIST JESUS. So, yes, it does mean that we don't HAVE to do anything anymore...not to earn salvation, and not to avoid being condemned.

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

    Romans 8:1... who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Paul goes on to explain that those IN CHRIST JESUS are NOT in the flesh.

    Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    This refers to our state of being...not our state of doing.

    Therefore, when Paul tells us Jesus fulfilled the righteousness of the law IN US, he means exactly that. Not for us, but IN US.

    Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,

    As for Romans 7, that is talking about the law and it's purpose. I'll have to address that in the next post. I can't handle too much at one time.

  27. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to glorydaz For Your Post:

    Right Divider (March 23rd, 2019),steko (March 18th, 2019),Wolguar (March 18th, 2019)

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