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Thread: The Relation of Old Testament To the New Testament, and Dispensationalism

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    What does Chafer mean by "Israel"
    In the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter Paul states:

    "But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).

    In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

    Paul is quoting from the OT so his reference to "Israel" at Romans 10:21 must be the Israel which had its beginning in the OT. Here is the verse which he quoted:

    "I have stretched forth my hands all day to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to them that walked in a way that was not good, but after their sins. This is the people that provokes me continually in my presence; they offer sacrifices in gardens, and burn incense on bricks to devils, which exist not"
    (Isa.65:2-3; LXX).

    So when Paul asks, "Hath God cast away His people" the words "His people" are referring back to the people of whom he just wrote about, the Israel he describes as being "a disobedient and gainsaying people."

    So when Paul asked, "Hath God cast away His people" he was asking if the nation of Israel that had its beginning in the OT had been cast away.

    And what he says next makes it plain that God has not cast away the Israel of the OT:

    "God forbid."

    northwye, your eschatology directly contradicts what Paul said about Israel which had its beginning in OT times.

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    You are taking one verse out of a context and making it say something different than what the entire text of Romans 11: 1-5 says.

    "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Romans 11: 1-5

    God did not cast away all of Old Covenant Israel. He did not cast away that remnant which believed Christ and became the first fruits of the New Covenant. Romans 11: 1-5 is about that remnant. But the Israel which dispensationalism is about is not that remnant. The Israel which dispensationalism builds its doctrines about is the multitude of Old Covenant physical Israel, what Paul is talking about in Galatians 3:3.

    I know that dispensationalism uses a peculiar "Hermeneutic," which is literalist, but I cannot understand how this "Hermeneutic" could lead a dispensationalist to pull Romans 11: 1 out of the context of a text that deals with the remnant of Old Covenant Israel and claim that this verse shows that God did not reject the multitude of Old Covenant Israel which did not accept Christ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    God did not cast away all of Old Covenant Israel. He did not cast away that remnant which believed Christ and became the first fruits of the New Covenant. Romans 11: 1-5 is about that remnant.
    Then why did he quote verses from the OT which speak of the whole nation of Israel:

    "But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).

    Do you really think that Paul is describing the remnant in this verse are being "a disobedient and gainsaying people"?

    Here are the promises which the LORD made to the Israel of the OT:

    "(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God) He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He sware unto them"
    (Deut. 4:31).

    "For the LORD will not forsake His people for His great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you His people"
    (1 Sam.12:22).

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    The explanation for pulling Romans 11: 1 out of context above makes no sense at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    The explanation for pulling Romans 11: 1 out of context above makes no sense at all.
    What makes no sense is your accusation that I pulled something out of context.

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    There are texts in Romans Chapter Nine which should be kept in mind - rather than the doctrines of a man made church theology, dispensationalism - when interpreting Romans Chapter 11, especially Romans 11: 1-5 and Romans 11: 26.

    "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9: 6-8

    The distinction between the children of the promise and the children of the flesh is to show that the promises of God did not apply to all ισραηλ κατα σαρκα or Israel after the flesh (I Corinthians 10: 18). The Israel which is called the children of the promise could be called the remnant.

    Then remember that Paul says in Romans 9: 27 that "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"

    He brings up the remnant of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 11: 1-5 at the beginning of Romans Chapter Eleven.

    "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Romans 11: 1-5

    Remember also that in Romans 11: 17-20 he says "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:"

    This is metaphoric, but he in saying that Gentiles, being branches from a wild olive tree, are grafted in to the good olive tree, which is the Israel of God of Galatians 6: 15-16, along with that remnant from Old Covenant Israel he talks about in Romans 11: 1-5. This is a contradiction of dispensationalism, but here it is.

    What he says in Ephesians 2: 11-13 about Gentiles being brought close to the Commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Christ supports Romans 11: 17-20.

    Paul in Romans Chapter 9 and in Chapter 11 before Romans 11: 25-25 is gradually moving toward the doctrine that saved Gentiles and Jews together make up the Good Olive Tree, or the Israel of God. This applies to the interpretation of Romans 11: 26 on who is saved in "All Israel shall be saved."

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    There are texts in Romans Chapter Nine which should be kept in mind - rather than the doctrines of a man made church theology, dispensationalism - when interpreting Romans Chapter 11, especially Romans 11: 1-5 and Romans 11: 26.

    Spoiler
    "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9: 6-8

    The distinction between the children of the promise and the children of the flesh is to show that the promises of God did not apply to all ισραηλ κατα σαρκα or Israel after the flesh (I Corinthians 10: 18). The Israel which is called the children of the promise could be called the remnant.

    Then remember that Paul says in Romans 9: 27 that "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"

    He brings up the remnant of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 11: 1-5 at the beginning of Romans Chapter Eleven.

    "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Romans 11: 1-5

    Remember also that in Romans 11: 17-20 he says "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:"


    This is metaphoric, but he in saying that Gentiles, being branches from a wild olive tree, are grafted in to the good olive tree, which is the Israel of God of Galatians 6: 15-16, along with that remnant from Old Covenant Israel he talks about in Romans 11: 1-5. This is a contradiction of dispensationalism, but here it is.

    What he says in Ephesians 2: 11-13 about Gentiles being brought close to the Commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Christ supports Romans 11: 17-20.

    Paul in Romans Chapter 9 and in Chapter 11 before Romans 11: 25-25 is gradually moving toward the doctrine that saved Gentiles and Jews together make up the Good Olive Tree, or the Israel of God. This applies to the interpretation of Romans 11: 26 on who is saved in "All Israel shall be saved."
    I'm seeing doctrines of men in there. You're using Paul's verse in Galatians incorrectly.

    Them the uncircumcision, AND the Israel of God the circumcision.

    Gal. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy upon the Israel of God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    In order to protect its postulate that old Covenant physical Israel still exists and that the New Covenant does not say that the Old Covenant was done away with (Hebrews 8: 6-7, 13 and II Corinthians 3: 7-11), dispensationalism has to say also that there is not a unity between saved Jews and saved Gentiles, contrary to Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28 and Colossians 3: 11).

    This is because Ephesians 2: 11-13 and Romans 11: 17-20 imply that saved Gentiles become part of remade Israel of the New Covenant which Paul calls the Israel of God in Galatians 6: 15-16. Ephesians 2: 11-13 has to be interpreted to be talking about the saved Gentiles who becoming "close" to The Commonwealth of Israel become part of remade Israel. And in Romans 11: 17-20 believing Gentiles are grafted into the Good Olive Tree which is a metaphor for remade Israel,

    Dispensationalism cannot have saved Jews and saved Gentiles being united in a Good Olive Tree which is remade Israel. Or "made close to Israel" which means they become part of remade Israel of the New Covenant. In dispensationalism there is no remade Israel of the New Covenant.

    And so dispensationalism becomes another Gospel which is in opposition to the true Gospel of Christ.
    Those verses may imply that to you, but that's because you don't understand what Paul is saying in that verse about the Israel of God.

    Israel has always been the people of the Circumcision.
    Gentiles are the people of the UNcircumcision.

    They are joined...NOT as a remade Israel, as you contend, but ONE NEW MAN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    Paul in Romans Chapter 9 and in Chapter 11 before Romans 11: 25-25 is gradually moving toward the doctrine that saved Gentiles and Jews together make up the Good Olive Tree, or the Israel of God.
    Here is what is said about the Gentiles who are grafted into thre Olive Tree:

    "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off" (Ro.11:22).

    Today it is the believing Jews and the believing Gentiles who are members of the Body of Christ. If the Olive Tree is the Body of Christ then we must believe that saved Gentiles can be "cut off" from the Body and lose salvation.

    However, according to the Lord Jesus' words that will never happen:

    "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.6:37).

    The Olive Tree does not represent the Body of Christ which is made up of both Jewish believers and Gentile believers.

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    "Paul in Romans Chapter 9 and in Chapter 11 before Romans 11: 25-26 is gradually moving toward the doctrine that saved Gentiles and Jews together make up the Good Olive Tree, or the Israel of God. This applies to the interpretation of Romans 11: 26 on who is saved in "All Israel shall be saved." "

    By all Israel in Romans 11: 26 Paul means all the elect of God, which is all of the good olive tree of Romans 11: 24 and the Israel of God in Galatians 6: 15-16. Saved Gentiles and saved Jews are a unity, and not "rightly divided" as dispensationalism would say.

    Of course, dispensationalists will not agree with this interpretation of Romans 11: 26, because they are in rebellion against several fundamental doctrines of the New Testament

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    "Paul in Romans Chapter 9 and in Chapter 11 before Romans 11: 25-26 is gradually moving toward the doctrine that saved Gentiles and Jews together make up the Good Olive Tree, or the Israel of God. This applies to the interpretation of Romans 11: 26 on who is saved in "All Israel shall be saved." "

    By all Israel in Romans 11: 26 Paul means all the elect of God, which is all of the good olive tree of Romans 11: 24 and the Israel of God in Galatians 6: 15-16. Saved Gentiles and saved Jews are a unity, and not "rightly divided" as dispensationalism would say.

    Of course, dispensationalists will not agree with this interpretation of Romans 11: 26, because they are in rebellion against several fundamental doctrines of the New Testament
    You just insist on lying.

    Israel does not ever mean simply "all the elect of God" anywhere in scripture. Except in the feeble mind of those that want to force the scripture into their bogus theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    "You just insist on lying."

    This is a personal attack, using one of the tactics of the Marxist version of the Hegelian dialectic. But since this is an attack upon a non-dispensationalist, it is maybe not considered a personal attack on TOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    "You just insist on lying."

    This is a personal attack, using one of the tactics of the Marxist version of the Hegelian dialectic. But since this is an attack upon a non-dispensationalist, it is maybe not considered a personal attack on TOL.
    No, it's just the truth. You don't like the truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    "Paul in Romans Chapter 9 and in Chapter 11 before Romans 11: 25-26 is gradually moving toward the doctrine that saved Gentiles and Jews together make up the Good Olive Tree, or the Israel of God. This applies to the interpretation of Romans 11: 26 on who is saved in "All Israel shall be saved." "
    Today saved gentiles and saved Jews make up the Body of Christ so you must think that the Olive Tree is the Body of Christ. So let us look at this verse which speak of the Gentiles in the Olive Tree:

    "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off" (Ro.11:22).

    If the Olive Tree is the Body of Christ then we must believe that saved Gentiles can be "cut off" from the Body and lose salvation.

    However, according to the Lord Jesus' words that will never happen:

    "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.6:37).

    Do you teach that those in the Body of Christ can be cut off from the Body and lose their salvation?

    Or are you going to take the fifth on the grounds that your answer will tend to expose the fact that you are clueless when it comes to understanding the Bible?

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    The use of carnal-type name-calling cannot be allowed on a Christian forum. James Lloyd has said that dispensationalists are a pack of liars, but it is a bad idea to call any individual on a forum a liar. James Lloyd did not say that on a Forum, and he was talking about a large group of people, dispensationalists, and not an individual. A verbal attack upon an individual is not the same at all to a verbal attack upon a group.

    There are rational discussions of three or four main interpretations of Romans 11: 25, "και ουτως πας ισραηλ σωθησεται, "and in this way all Israel shall be saved," on the Internet. The interpretation of John Calvin in his Commentaries saying that "I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, — “When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first-born in God’s family.”

    Calvin's is the one interpretation of Romans 11: 26 that the dispensationalists, in their rebellion against New Testament doctrines, totally reject.

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