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Thread: The Relation of Old Testament To the New Testament, and Dispensationalism

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    The Relation of Old Testament To the New Testament, and Dispensationalism

    The Relation of Old Testament To the New Testament, and Dispensationalism

    Matthew 5: 17 says "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

    Fulfill is from πληρωσαι, plerossi, plÚroˇ

    See https://biblehub.com/greek/4137.htm

    Strong's number 4137, "Definition: to make full, to complete."

    In II Corinthians 3: 8 Paul calls the New Covenant, created by Jesus Christ, "...the ministration of the Spirit." He calls the Old Covenant "...the ministration of death in Ii Corinthians 3: 7 and ..."the ministration of condemnation in II Corinthians 3: 9.

    And in II Corinthians 3: 6 Paul says that Christ ",,,hath made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life."

    In II Corinthians 5: 17 Paul says "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

    Just as anyone, regardless of his or her genetics, who is in Christ is a new creation (ktisis, creature or creation), so Christ made the New Covenant a new creation. In Romans 12: 2 Paul writes about being transformed by the renewing of your mind, referring to being born again (John 3: 1-6), and so Christ created the New Covenant as a transformation of the Old Covenant. This remaking of the Old Covenant was the remaking of Israel according to Jeremiah 18: 1-6. But in that remaking of Israel, Christ included the Gentiles (Hosea 2: 23) who became saved.

    In Colossians 2: 16-16 Paul writes that "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

    What Paul is saying is that the Old Covenant law involving circumcision, animal sacrifice, holy days, and the temple system, all of the flesh, and not of the ministration of the Spirit,was a mere shadow of the spiritual substance which was to come when Christ created the New Covenant.

    Paul was to make an issue in the Jerusalem Church in Acts 15 over the teaching of men from Judea and the Pharisees in the Church (Acts 15: 1, 5) that Gentiles must be circumcised, a teaching that opposed the transformation of the Old Covenant physical emphasis to the New Covenant's spiritual nature in Christ and the Holy Spirit.

    Paul says in I Corinthians 3: 16-17 and In I Corinthians 6: 19 that Christian believers are the temple of God and that the bodies of the believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit, a transformation of the temple system.

    And, while there are a great many prophecies about the coming of the New Covenant and about Jesus Christ appearing, none of these Old Testament prophecies fulfilled in the New Testament involve the insistence of dispensationalists that a physical land promise to Israel is to be fulfilled in the future from now.

    Instead, the Old Testament prophecies fulfilled in the New Testament are about spiritual things, not things of the flesh like circumcision, or the land.

    For example, Isaiah 53 is a prophecy about Christ.
    "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53: 5-6

    Daniel 9: 24 is a prophecy about the work of redemption to be done in the New Covenant by Christ. "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

    Hosea 13: 14 predicts that Jesus Christ will defeat death itself. "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction:"

    Zechariah 9: 9 predicts that Christ will bring salvation. "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***."

    Then, Malachi 3: 1 writes about Christ being the messenger of the New Covenant. "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."

    In Acts 2: 16-18 Peter refers to Joel 2: 28 - "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"

    Peter is saying here that the appearing of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 was a fulfillment of the prophesy of Joel 2: 28. The appearing of the Holy Spirit marked the beginning of he New Covenant.

    The New Testament is silent about the land promises in the Old Testament to Israel. The New Testament statements which show specific fulfillments of Old testament prophecy about Jesus Christ and the New Covenant are all spiritual in nature, since the New Covenant is the "Ministration of the Spirit."

    Yet dispensatonlism comes along in the 19th century and claims that Old Covenant Israel is an eternal people of God, while the Gentile Church is only a parenthesis between two dispensations of Old Covenant physical Israel, which Christ had transformed in the early First Century

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    The New Testament is silent about the land promises in the Old Testament to Israel.
    Are you actually saying that the following promises which the LORD made to David concerning Israel and the land have already been fulfilled or will not be fulfilled because they are not spoken of in the NT?:

    "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).

    There has never been a time when the children of Israel were brought back to the land which the LORD gave to Jacob and were moved no more, unless that prophecy is being fulfilled right now. And there has never been a time when they were brought back to the land and were moved no more and the Israelites were not afflicted by their enemies because at this time they are being afflicted by their enemies. Therefore, we can understand that in the future these prophecies concerning Israel and the land will be fulfilled. After all, the LORD said that He would not alter the promises He made to David and He also said that He will not lie to David:

    "I have made a covenant with my chosen one, I have sworn to David my servant...I will not take my love from him, nor will I ever betray my faithfulness. I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered. Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness-- and I will not lie to David"
    (Ps.89:3,33-35).

    The following prophecy speaks of the time when the promise the LORD made to David concerning the land and the Israelites living in peace will be fulfilled:

    "They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever'" (Ezek.37:25-28).

    When in the past was that prophecy fulfilled?

    Or are you arguing that Ezekiel was a false prophet? Are you also arguing that the LORD promised David these things to David but He was lying because what he promised will never happened?

    Please tell us your thinking about these verses I have quoted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    The Relation of Old Testament To the New Testament, and Dispensationalism

    Matthew 5: 17 says "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

    Fulfill is from πληρωσαι, plerossi, plÚroˇ

    See https://biblehub.com/greek/4137.htm

    Strong's number 4137, "Definition: to make full, to complete."

    In II Corinthians 3: 8 Paul calls the New Covenant, created by Jesus Christ, "...the ministration of the Spirit." He calls the Old Covenant "...the ministration of death in Ii Corinthians 3: 7 and ..."the ministration of condemnation in II Corinthians 3: 9.

    And in II Corinthians 3: 6 Paul says that Christ ",,,hath made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life."

    In II Corinthians 5: 17 Paul says "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

    Just as anyone, regardless of his or her genetics, who is in Christ is a new creation (ktisis, creature or creation), so Christ made the New Covenant a new creation. In Romans 12: 2 Paul writes about being transformed by the renewing of your mind, referring to being born again (John 3: 1-6), and so Christ created the New Covenant as a transformation of the Old Covenant. This remaking of the Old Covenant was the remaking of Israel according to Jeremiah 18: 1-6. But in that remaking of Israel, Christ included the Gentiles (Hosea 2: 23) who became saved.

    In Colossians 2: 16-16 Paul writes that "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

    What Paul is saying is that the Old Covenant law involving circumcision, animal sacrifice, holy days, and the temple system, all of the flesh, and not of the ministration of the Spirit,was a mere shadow of the spiritual substance which was to come when Christ created the New Covenant.

    Paul was to make an issue in the Jerusalem Church in Acts 15 over the teaching of men from Judea and the Pharisees in the Church (Acts 15: 1, 5) that Gentiles must be circumcised, a teaching that opposed the transformation of the Old Covenant physical emphasis to the New Covenant's spiritual nature in Christ and the Holy Spirit.

    Paul says in I Corinthians 3: 16-17 and In I Corinthians 6: 19 that Christian believers are the temple of God and that the bodies of the believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit, a transformation of the temple system.

    And, while there are a great many prophecies about the coming of the New Covenant and about Jesus Christ appearing, none of these Old Testament prophecies fulfilled in the New Testament involve the insistence of dispensationalists that a physical land promise to Israel is to be fulfilled in the future from now.

    Instead, the Old Testament prophecies fulfilled in the New Testament are about spiritual things, not things of the flesh like circumcision, or the land.

    For example, Isaiah 53 is a prophecy about Christ.
    "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53: 5-6

    Daniel 9: 24 is a prophecy about the work of redemption to be done in the New Covenant by Christ. "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

    Hosea 13: 14 predicts that Jesus Christ will defeat death itself. "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction:"

    Zechariah 9: 9 predicts that Christ will bring salvation. "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***."

    Then, Malachi 3: 1 writes about Christ being the messenger of the New Covenant. "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."

    In Acts 2: 16-18 Peter refers to Joel 2: 28 - "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"

    Peter is saying here that the appearing of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 was a fulfillment of the prophesy of Joel 2: 28. The appearing of the Holy Spirit marked the beginning of he New Covenant.

    The New Testament is silent about the land promises in the Old Testament to Israel. The New Testament statements which show specific fulfillments of Old testament prophecy about Jesus Christ and the New Covenant are all spiritual in nature, since the New Covenant is the "Ministration of the Spirit."

    Yet dispensatonlism comes along in the 19th century and claims that Old Covenant Israel is an eternal people of God, while the Gentile Church is only a parenthesis between two dispensations of Old Covenant physical Israel, which Christ had transformed in the early First Century
    I agree with you that the Covenants are different. In fact, believers today are to follow the New Covenant primarily and not the Old Covenant. But that does not mean there are not useful things that are applicable to our lives in the Old Covenant. That does not mean there are no land promises given to Old Covenant believers. The New is merely a progression of the Old. But the New does not invalidate certain promises made in the Old.

    “I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God” (Genesis 17:8).

    Here is a quote from an article that might help you.

    “When they had come together, they asked Him, saying, ‘Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?’” (Acts 1:6). Consider the context: For 40 days, the resurrected Yeshua has been coaching His followers on how the Kingdom of God works. Now they ask if He will restore sovereignty to Israel in the midst of the Roman occupation. One theologian, seeking to undermine the validity of their inquiry, suggests “the question itself must have filled Yeshua with dismay” (Wood). Yeshua’s response in verse 7—“It is not for you to know the times or seasons…”—actually validates their assumptions. The Teacher did not chastise His pupils for expecting Israel’s restoration but taught them that the timing is completely in the Father’s hands.

    “All the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us” (2 Cor. 1:20). Yes, everything God has promised is affirmed in Yeshua, but this is very different from the notion that Yeshua took all of Israel’s promises and gave them to the Church! Instead, Christians can rejoice that Yeshua affirms both the promises to Israel and the promises to the grafted-in Church, which include the land of our Messiah’s birth, ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and return."

    Article source:
    https://www.bridgesforpeace.com/lett...new-testament/
    If you have never received the love that comes from accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, check out this thread here: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?132508-What-is-the-gospel-amp-what-is-it-s-end-goal-or-purpose-for-our-lives

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    The whole point in bringing up the teachings on transformation of the individual in the New Testament and the transformation in the creation of the New Covenant is that these transformations give spiritual strength to the Gospel of Christ to change individuals. But the focus upon Old Covenant Israel by dispensationalism can reduce the power of the Gospel to transform individuals. Dispensationalists may not understand this reduction of the power of the Gospel by changing it through changing the focus.

    Protestant Christianity at this point in time badly needs a correction in its theology. Martin Luther, William Tyndale, and John Calvin went a long way in restoring the basic doctrines of the New Testament, especially on salvation by faith alone. But their successors, called Calvinists, added man made systematic theological doctrines. And later dispensationalism replaced what Luther, Tyndale and Calvin taught, at least in the evangelical denominations, with "theologically correct" man-made doctrines and "rightly divided" systematic theology involving Old Covenant Israel existing along with the Gentile Church, which focuses attention away from the Gospel as given in the New Testament, and weakens its power to change individuals. The weakening of basic Christian morality is probably one outcome of this takeover of the evangelical denominations by dispensationalism.

    For example, instead of including in its teachings a protestant Christianity faithful to the New Testament doctrines, the current Patriot-Populist-Alternative Media Movement, which makes some claim of including Christian doctrines, is dispensationalist, at least as far as Trump is concerned.
    Last edited by northwye; March 14th, 2019 at 12:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    The whole point in bringing up the teachings on transformation of the individual in the New Testament and the transformation in the creation of the New Covenant is that these transformations give spiritual strength to the Gospel of Christ to change individuals. But the focus upon Old Covenant Israel by dispensationalism can reduce the power of the Gospel to transform individuals. Dispensationalists may not understand this reduction of the power of the Gospel by changing it by changing the focus.
    I don't see how the land promise given to Israel is a reduction in power away from the gospel.
    Jesus was a Jew and He said salvation was of the Jews.
    The New Covenant comes out of the Old.
    Disregarding the Old entirely is not wise.
    Jesus says that the Scriptures testify of Him.
    This would be the OT Scriptures (Including those verses on Israel's land promise).
    If you have never received the love that comes from accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, check out this thread here: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?132508-What-is-the-gospel-amp-what-is-it-s-end-goal-or-purpose-for-our-lives

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    northwe, you are good at making assertions against dispensationalists which are not true but you run and hide from passages from the Bible which demonstrates that your ideas are in error.

    All I see from you is the ability to parrot what some people say about dispensationalism but a total inability to deal with passages from the Bible which contradict your false charges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    northwe, you are good at making assertions against dispensationalists which are not true but you run and hide from passages from the Bible which demonstrates that your ideas are in error.

    All I see from you is the ability to parrot what some people say about dispensationalism but a total inability to deal with passages from the Bible which contradict your false charges.
    Couldn't have said it better myself, Jerry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    I don't see how the land promise given to Israel is a reduction in power away from the gospel.
    Jesus was a Jew and He said salvation was of the Jews.
    The New Covenant comes out of the Old.
    Disregarding the Old entirely is not wise.
    Jesus says that the Scriptures testify of Him.
    This would be the OT Scriptures (Including those verses on Israel's land promise).
    The new covenant is between the same two parties as the old covenant.

    The body of Christ is not involved in Israel's covenants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Its easy to discredit dispensationalism. All you have to do is find out which New Testament scriptures are relevant to dispensationalist doctrines and quote those scriptures. Then, if you do a fairly good job of interpreting those NT scriptures, the dispensationalists on TOL will ignore you or anwer with repetition of a few OT scriptures and/or go off into tactics of the dialectic to try to discredit you or attack you personally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    Its easy to discredit dispensationalism.
    All you have done is to discredit yourself.

    Why do you refuse to discuss specific verses?

    What is your excuse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    The new covenant is between the same two parties as the old covenant.

    The body of Christ is not involved in Israel's covenants.
    And that particular point is rarely understood by people who read the Bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    Its easy to discredit dispensationalism. All you have to do is find out which New Testament scriptures are relevant to dispensationalist doctrines and quote those scriptures. Then, if you do a fairly good job of interpreting those NT scriptures, the dispensationalists on TOL will ignore you or anwer with repetition of a few OT scriptures and/or go off into tactics of the dialectic to try to discredit you or attack you personally.
    I'm not believing you. You only get ignored when you fail to listen and address what has been offered.

    Go ahead. Give it a try. Let me see what you're talking about.

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    In order to protect its postulate that old Covenant physical Israel still exists and that the New Covenant does not say that the Old Covenant was done away with (Hebrews 8: 6-7, 13 and II Corinthians 3: 7-11), dispensationalism has to say also that there is not a unity between saved Jews and saved Gentiles, contrary to Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28 and Colossians 3: 11).

    This is because Ephesians 2: 11-13 and Romans 11: 17-20 imply that saved Gentiles become part of remade Israel of the New Covenant which Paul calls the Israel of God in Galatians 6: 15-16. Ephesians 2: 11-13 has to be interpreted to be talking about the saved Gentiles who becoming "close" to The Commonwealth of Israel become part of remade Israel. And in Romans 11: 17-20 believing Gentiles are grafted into the Good Olive Tree which is a metaphor for remade Israel,

    Dispensationalism cannot have saved Jews and saved Gentiles being united in a Good Olive Tree which is remade Israel. Or "made close to Israel" which means they become part of remade Israel of the New Covenant. In dispensationalism there is no remade Israel of the New Covenant.

    And so dispensationalism becomes another Gospel which is in opposition to the true Gospel of Christ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    dispensationalism has to say also that there is not a unity between saved Jews and saved Gentiles, contrary to Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28 and Colossians 3: 11).
    That is ridiculous because dispensationalists say that both believing Jews and believing Gentiles have been baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13) and both are in unity in the Body of Christ.

    You can't understand the Scriptures and you misrepresent what dispensationalists teach.

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    "Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

    What does Chafer mean by "Israel"

    Israel as it existed when Christ was born on earth ended in 70 A.D. with the taking of Jerusalem by the Roman Army which then destroyed the Temple. The rule of the Pharisees ended at this time, as did the Temple System. After the destruction of he Temple there was a change from Pharisaic Judaism to Rabbinic Judaism. The Rabbis, though influenced by the earlier Pharisees, replaced the Pharisees as the religious leaders of the Jews.

    The question is, can Rabbinic Judaism be identified as "Israel" But then can "Israel" be identified as being all those of the physical bloodline from Abraham?

    And the issue is Galatians Chapter 3, in which Paul explains that the physical bloodline as marking the Chosen People of God has been replaced by faith.

    Paul is subtle in Galatians 3. He does not come out and say "The Physical bloodline as the marker for the chosen people of God has been replaced by faith."

    "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Galatians 3: 3

    By the flesh he means the physical bloodline.

    "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3: 7

    Galatians 3: 7 is clear enough that we become the Children of Abraham by faith in Christ.

    Yet Paul still does not come and say clearly that the identify of Israel as the chosen people is no longer based upon the physical bloodline.

    "...that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ: that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Galatians 3: 14 Again this is clear that faith is that which now, in the New Covenant, identifies people as being the chosen or elect of God.

    "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Galatians 3: 16 The seed of Abraham is Christ, though Christ is God. It is Jesus Christ who delivers spiritual life to those who have faith in him, and makes them heirs of Abraham, who believed God.

    Dispensationalists do not talk about Galatians 3 very much, because it is a threat to their system of postulates which oppose New Testament scripture.

    For dispensationalism, Israel must remain defined by the physical bloodline. If Galatians 3 were believed by many dispensationalists, this would be a serious blow to their theology.

    "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Galatians 6: 8

    "As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ......For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    16.And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." Galatians 6: 12, 15-16

    Paul has said in Galatians 3: 28 that "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

    So, in Galatians 6: 15-16 how could Paul be talking only about saved Jews being now the Israel of God? He cannot. The Israel of God is made up of saved Jews and saved Gentiles, just as the good olive tree of Romans 11 is made up of both peoples contrary to dispensationalism. Or will their chief spokesman, the verbal wrestler of TOL, now say that dispensationalism teaches that Galatians 6: 15-16 includes saved Gentiles, with the saved Jews?

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