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Thread: Did the "Eternal Word" merge with a newly created human mind, will, and emotions?

  1. #76
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Christ was clearly human in the sense that He had a physical flesh and blood body that came from the DNA of Mary (Which was in the line of Adam).
    Do not those who are born of humans have what Paul called an "inner man" at birth?

    The Lord Jesus is now in the heavenly kingdom as Man (Acts 7:56) but He is not in a flesh and blood body (1 Cor.15:50). In what sense is He now the Son of Man?

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    Veteran Jason0047's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Do not those who are born of humans have what Paul called an "inner man" at birth?
    We have a created soul and spirit... "yes."

    But GOD has always had a soul and spirit from eternity's past. God is eternal.

    Adding a newly created human mind, will, emotions, and conscience, etc. to GOD means that there is a portion or part of God that we cannot worship. Jesus Himself said we are to worship God alone. A newly created human mind, will, emotions, and conscience is not God or divine in any way, and as a result, this would be a problem in our worship in Jesus being God. For we cannot cut the human mind, will, emotions and conscience of Jesus out of Jesus so as to worship Him solely as God.

    In other words, do you feel it is proper to worship human beings as if they are God?

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    The Lord Jesus is now in the heavenly kingdom as Man (Acts 7:56) but He is not in a flesh and blood body (1 Cor.15:50). In what sense is He now the Son of Man?
    Jesus is the exception to the rule on 1 Corinthians 15:50. The context of 1 Corinthians 15:50 is us and not Jesus.

    Jesus forever lives in a flesh and blood body.

    "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." (Revelation 1:18).

    "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:25).

    “the life of the flesh is in the blood” (Leviticus 17:11).

    "In Luke 24:39, after Jesus had risen and ascended to the Father, He came before His followers and said, "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.
    If you have never received the love that comes from accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, check out this thread here: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?132508-What-is-the-gospel-amp-what-is-it-s-end-goal-or-purpose-for-our-lives

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Jesus is the exception to the rule on 1 Corinthians 15:50. The context of 1 Corinthians 15:50 is us and not Jesus.

    Jesus forever lives in a flesh and blood body.
    When the believers in the Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air they will put on glorious bodies like His glorious body. So when those believers enter the heavenly kingdom what kind of bodies will they have?

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    Veteran Jason0047's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    When the believers in the Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air they will put on glorious bodies like His glorious body. So when those believers enter the heavenly kingdom what kind of bodies will they have?
    It's a bit of a complicated explanation.

    Do you believe Jesus made pre-incarnate appearances in the Old Testament?
    If you do not know about this truth, then I am not sure you will see where I am coming from.
    If you have never received the love that comes from accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, check out this thread here: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?132508-What-is-the-gospel-amp-what-is-it-s-end-goal-or-purpose-for-our-lives

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    It's a bit of a complicated explanation.

    Do you believe Jesus made pre-incarnate appearances in the Old Testament?
    If you do not know about this truth, then I am not sure you will see where I am coming from.
    That does not answer my question:

    When the believers in the Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air they will put on glorious bodies like His glorious body. So when those believers enter the heavenly kingdom what kind of bodies will they have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Men like at the website Carm, falsely teach that Jesus worshiped GOD the Father.

    See their admittance to this here:
    https://carm.org/jesus-christ/does-jesus-have-a-god

    The reason why they believe wrong things like this is because they blindly hold to a creed made up by men in the past without really seeking the truth for themselves on this matter with Scripture.
    We see from Scripture that our Lord told us how to worship God John 4:24 and how to pray to God Matthew 6:9, but I don't know of any verse that says He "worshipped" God. On the contrary, we see lots of verses that speak of Jesus Christ being worshipped. examples

    Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

    Matthew 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

    Matthew 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    We have a created soul and spirit... "yes."
    No, man is born not created. Only the first man, Adam, was created.

    And he was created with a spirit, soul, and body, which we all were BORN WITH.

    But GOD has always had a soul and spirit from eternity's past.
    No, God does not have a spirit. He is a spirit.

    John 4:24
    God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


    If you build upon a faulty foundation, your building will crumble.

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  10. #83
    Veteran Jason0047's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    We see from Scripture that our Lord told us how to worship God John 4:24 and how to pray to God Matthew 6:9, but I don't know of any verse that says He "worshipped" God. On the contrary, we see lots of verses that speak of Jesus Christ being worshipped. examples

    Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

    Matthew 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

    Matthew 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
    Right. My point is that Jesus is God and we are to worship Him. The whole HU mess leads people like at Carm and the creators of the Son of God film to think that Jesus worshiped God the Father (When this is not the case).
    If you have never received the love that comes from accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, check out this thread here: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?132508-What-is-the-gospel-amp-what-is-it-s-end-goal-or-purpose-for-our-lives

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    Veteran Jason0047's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    No, man is born not created. Only the first man, Adam, was created.
    Semantics. We come from Adam and Eve. So yes... we were created. If God did not create Adam and Eve, then he would not be able to exist. We are a creation of God and we are fearfully and wonderfully made. We come from the genetics of Adam and Eve. Their genetic code was not born into the world but it was created by God and placed into them (When He created them out of the Earth).

    And he was created with a spirit, soul, and body, which we all were BORN WITH.
    It is true that Jesus clearly had a physical flesh and blood body via Mary (who was a descendant of Adam). There are Scriptures that support this conclusion.

    As for Jesus having a human soul and human spirit:
    Well, you believe this of course with no actual Scriptural support. The Bible never says that Jesus had a human spirit, and a human soul. It never specifically says that using those words. Assumptions are made based off his behavior that this is so.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    No, God does not have a spirit. He is a spirit.
    Again, Semantics. It is saying the same thing.
    I am happy. I have happiness. It's saying the same thing.

    "And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory." (Revelation 16:9).

    Revelation 16:9 says God has power. Yet, I can also say God is power. He is the true power in the universe. Same thing. God has power. God is power.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    John 4:24
    God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


    If you build upon a faulty foundation, your building will crumble.
    Right, I am 100% fully aware of the verse. I didn't forget it.
    If you have never received the love that comes from accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, check out this thread here: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?132508-What-is-the-gospel-amp-what-is-it-s-end-goal-or-purpose-for-our-lives

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    Veteran Jason0047's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    That does not answer my question:

    When the believers in the Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air they will put on glorious bodies like His glorious body. So when those believers enter the heavenly kingdom what kind of bodies will they have?
    But in order for me to explain it, you have to first know about another study to truly grasp where I am coming from. For if you don't know about how Christ made pre-incarnate made appearances in the OT, then you are not going to fully grasp my explanation on this.

    So if you honestly do not know or you don't care to know, then I cannot help you. You need a basic foundational truth first in order to get the full explanation.
    If you have never received the love that comes from accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, check out this thread here: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?132508-What-is-the-gospel-amp-what-is-it-s-end-goal-or-purpose-for-our-lives

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    But in order for me to explain it, you have to first know about another study to truly grasp where I am coming from.
    If you have an answer to my following question then just tell me your answer and we will go from there:

    When the believers in the Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air they will put on glorious bodies like His glorious body. So when those believers enter the heavenly kingdom what kind of bodies will they have?

    If you actually have an answer that makes sense then give it to us and then if you are right I am sure that you will be able to defend it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    If you have an answer to my following question then just tell me your answer and we will go from there:

    When the believers in the Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air they will put on glorious bodies like His glorious body. So when those believers enter the heavenly kingdom what kind of bodies will they have?

    If you actually have an answer that makes sense then give it to us and then if you are right I am sure that you will be able to defend it.
    I will make an attempt to explain it, but I am not sure you are going to get it.

    Part 1 - To see the first stage in my Explanation, click here on this spoiler button:

    Spoiler
    Important Note so that there is no confusion:

    Christ is the Eternal God who is the creator (John 1:1 KJV), uncreated, and second person of the Godhead (i.e. the Word) who was made flesh (John 1:14 KJV). For the Lord our God is one God who exists in three distinct persons (i.e. the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit) (1 John 5:7 KJV). Jesus Christ is God Almighty in the flesh and He is not a created angel. In the KJV: the word "angel" in reference to the title "Angel of the Lord" is actually translated as "Messenger" in the Hebrew. So the words as we would understand it today would say "Messenger of the Lord". So, no. Jesus is not an angel. It is merely a title or a name only! Anyways, I believe this "Messenger of the Lord" is a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ (Who is God) in the Old Testament. Again, these pre-incarnate appearances are called "Theophanies" or "Christophanies".


    Jesus (Who is the Eternal God) is the Messenger of the Lord in the OT:

    It is quite astonishing to discover that Jesus Christ appears not only in the prophecies and typifications within the Old Testament but He also actually makes real pre-incarnate physical appearances in the Old Testament, as well. Many of these appearances are under the title of the "Angel of the Lord" in the KJV. Yet, we clearly know that Jesus is not a created angel or being but He is God Almighty Himself (or the second person in the Godhead).

    Anyways, please take the time to look up the origin of the word "angel" at etymonline. While you are there, you will discover that it can also be defined as "messenger".

    Online Etymology Dictionary

    In other words, Jesus is the Messenger of the Lord in the Old Testament!

    Now, where does our Lord Jesus appear as a messenger in the Old Testament?

    1. The Story of Hagar -

    Genesis 16:7-13

    The angel of the LORD promised to do something that only God can do (see v.10). Hagar knew that it was the Lord who spoke to her (v. 13) and she identified the angel of the LORD as God: "Thou God seest me" (v.13).

    Genesis 21:17-20

    The angel of the Lord promised to do something only God can do (see v.18). This angel is identified as God (v.19).

    2. The Story of Abraham & Sarah -

    Genesis 18:1-33

    Although the title of the "angel of the Lord" is not used here, it is clear within this chapter that is Jesus Christ. First, "the Lord appeared unto him (i.e. Abraham)" (v. 1) followed by the immediate appearance of three men (v. 2). Abraham and Sarah both call him Lord, as well (v. 3) (v. 12). The Lord also knew Sarah had laughed at God's promise when she was not present (v. 15).

    3. The Story of Abraham & Isaac -

    Genesis 22:15-18

    The angel of the Lord is speaking (verses 15-16) and yet verse 16 makes it clear that it is God who is speaking ("saith the LORD")! In verses 17-18 the angel of the Lord promises to do what only God can do.

    4. The Story of Jacob -

    Genesis 31:11-13

    The angel of God (v.11) identifies Himself as God: "I am the God of Bethel" (v.13).

    Genesis 32:24-32

    Jacob wrestles with a man who he later identifies the place with the name "Peniel", which means he had seen God face to face (v. 30).

    5. The Story of Joseph -

    Genesis 48:14-16

    When Jacob was blessing Joseph and his sons he mentions :The Angel which redeemed me from all evil" (v. 16). Now, last time I checked, but angels do not redeem anyone. They are simply guardians.

    6. The Story of Moses -

    Exodus 3:2-7

    The angel of the Lord appeared to Moses out of the midst of a burning bush and identified Himself as God (verses 4 and 6) and as Lord (verses 4 and 7). See also Acts 7:30-32 where the angel of the Lord is identified as the Lord God.

    Exodus 14:19-21

    The angel of God does what only God can do (verses 19-20) and is identified with the glorious manifestation of God in the pillar of the cloud (verses 19-20). In verse 21 this angel is identified as "the LORD".

    Exodus 23:20-23

    This passage makes it clear that the Lord’s angel is much more than a mere angel; this angel is closely identified with God: Lord’s "name is in Him" (v.21, "name" referring to Lord's nature and character) and God’s people must "obey His voice" (v.21). Indeed, He has the authority to "pardon your transgressions" or not to pardon them, and who can forgive sins but God alone? Notice that the angel is distinct from God and sent by God. The LORD said, "Behold, I send an angel before thee." We are reminded of New Testament parallels as the Son was distinct from the Father and sent by the Father (John 3:17; etc.) and yet equal to the Father (John 5:18) (John 10:30).

    7. The Story of Balaam -

    Numbers 22:20-35

    Now in the story of Balaam, we begin with God speaking directly to Balaam, then a transition from God to "angel of the Lord" So guess who was standing before Balaam? None other than Jesus Christ. The "angel of the LORD" is used many times in verses 23-26, and verses 31-35 and the LORD in verses 28-31. Then continuing in Chapter 23 God meets Balaam in verse 4 and the LORD is mentioned in verses 5 and 16. These titles are being used interchangeably.

    8. The Story of Joshua -

    Joshua 5:13-15

    Again, although the "Angel of the Lord" is not mentioned here, Jesus did appear to Joshua in the form of a man. This man was worshiped by Joshua (v. 14) and this man declared that Joshua was standing on Holy ground (v. 15).

    9. The Beginning Story of the Judges -

    Judges 2:1-3

    The angel of Lord says things that only God could say. God is the One who brought them into the land which He swore to give unto their fathers (v.1). God is the One who promised to never break His covenant (v.1).

    10. The Story of Gideon -

    Judges 6:11-24

    As you follow this passage, pay close attention to who is speaking to Gideon: in verse 12 the angel of the Lord is speaking; in verse 14 the Lord is speaking; in verse 16 the Lord is speaking; in verse 20 the angel of God is speaking. Lord and the angel of Lord are one and the same.

    11. The Story of Samson's Birth -

    Judges 13:3-23

    Note especially verses 17-18. Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, "What is Thy Name?" (v.17) and the angel of the Lord said, "Why asketh thou thus after My Name, seeing it is secret?" The word "secret" may be translated "wonderful." It is the same Hebrew word found in Isaiah 9:6 – "His Name shall be called wonderful." In Isaiah 9:6 the term is used as a name of Christ who is also called "the Mighty God." The fact that the Lord's angel was God was certainly known by Manoah. After the angel of the Lord appeared to him Manoah said, "We have seen God!" (v.22).

    Conclusion:

    The Angel of the Lord is also mentioned in the story of David, Isaiah, the Psalms, and Zechariah. So it is amazing to see how Jesus Christ being our eternal God was always present in the past, even revealing Himself within the sacred Scriptures of the Old Testament, too.


    Part 2 - To see the next stage in my Explanation, click here on this spoiler button:

    Spoiler
    "Angel of the Lord" is an accurate description or title for Jesus in the Old Testament as stated in the KJV (King James Version).

    Now, while Jesus was NOT an actual created being like an angel or anything silly like that, Jesus did have to hide His glory as God (who is spirit and who is eternal and uncreated). For just looking at the face of God would kill a flesh and blood human being (as Scripture says).

    So Jesus put on an empty soulless shell of a body that comes from angels. Think of it like an angel suit. Jesus did not possess an angel in existence (who had a soul). No, no,no. Nor did Jesus create a new sentient being so as to co-mingle his mind with. Certainly not! Jesus is eternally God! Jesus's mind is His own! Jesus is the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity (Who is eternal and spirit and uncreated).

    Anyways, God hiding His glorious presence is not a new thing in Scripture. God was within the pillar of fire by night and the pillar of cloud by day.

    The only verse that this appears to contradict the idea that Jesus took on the nature of angels in the Old Testament is Hebrews 2:16. For it says,

    "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels;
    but he took on him the seed of Abraham. " (Hebrews 2:16).

    While this appears to be a contradiction at first glance, the focus here is the Incarnation or Christ coming to this world to pay the price for our sin. It is saying He did not take on the nature of angels in the for our salvation (See: Hebrews 2:9) but He took on him the seed of Abraham (a physical flesh and blood body). This does not discount that Jesus might have taken on the nature of angels beforehand in the Old Testament (in being the "Angel of the Lord" or the "Messenger of the Lord."). In Hebrews 2: The author of Hebrews is not concerned with making exhaustive truth statements here, but He is specifically talking about Jesus being our Messiah or salvation within a flesh and blood body of a man. It would not be a contradiction if Jesus took on the nature of angels before He took on the seed of Abraham.

    Only a person attempting to rip verses out of their context and focus a laser beam on certain verses will see otherwise. What folks sometimes fail to realize is that the Bible makes many supposed contradictory statements. But if a person is spiritual and they seek to harmonize God's Word by looking at the context, and by praying about it, then the supposed contradictions disappear. Those who want to see error in God's Word, will only see error (Where there is none).


    Part 3 - To see the next stage in my Explanation, click here on this spoiler button:

    Spoiler
    Luke 20:36 says, "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."

    Matthew 22:30 says, "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

    John 1:12 says, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

    Sons of God is a reference to angels in the OT. In the NT, it is generally a reference to believers (with John 1:12 being an exception). Matthew 22:20 says we will not be given into marriage because we will be like the angels of God in heaven. Luke 20:36 says that we believers will not die anymore because we will be like the angels. This implies angels are immortal. Matthew 22:20 says we will be like the angels. So when the Pre-Trib Rapture talks about how this mortal must put on immortality, it is in reference to putting on the spiritual angelic bodies that are immortal.


    Part 4 - To see the next stage in my Explanation, click here on this spoiler button:

    Spoiler
    The Rapture and the Final Flesh and Blood Body Resurrection is Glorification.
    Glorification is God taking us home.
    This is a part of salvation that God does 100%.
    This is when the body of Christ (the Bride) will rise to meet the Lord in the air. This Glorification includes receiving new heavenly bodies like that of angels (Hence, why John 1:12 says that those who received Him [i.e. Jesus] gave he power to become the sons of God; Sons of God was a reference to angels in the Old Testament; For this mortal must put on immortality). Yes, it is true we will also receive a physical flesh and blood body like Jesus one day, as well. But the first stage of Glorification is a special event of being with Christ (with Him being in His physical body) up in Heaven. It is the marriage of Christ to the bride (i.e. His faithful church).



    Part 5 - To see the final stage in my Explanation, click here on this spoiler button:

    Spoiler
    So seeing believers will take on the nature of angels, it makes sense that Jesus at one point in time took on the nature of angels, too. This obviously was not in the Incarnation. Hebrews 2 makes it clear that Jesus did not take on the nature of angels in order to redeems us with His death and resurrection. But it makes sense that Christ is the head of everything. That if we had angelic bodies, then Christ would have had one at some point in time, too. Does Christ still have an angelic body along with his flesh and blood body? I don't know. What I do know is that Jesus did appear in the Old Testament under the title: "The Angel of the Lord." This ties it all together. Both the Old and the New.
    If you have never received the love that comes from accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, check out this thread here: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?132508-What-is-the-gospel-amp-what-is-it-s-end-goal-or-purpose-for-our-lives

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    So Jesus put on an empty soulless shell of a body that comes from angels.
    The Scriptures reveal that He was made lower than angels:

    "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).

    Instead of his body putting on an empty shell of a body which comes from angels He was made like his human brethren "in all things" (Heb.2:17).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The Scriptures reveal that He was made lower than angels:

    "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).

    Instead of his body putting on an empty shell of a body which comes from angels He was made like his human brethren "in all things" (Heb.2:17).
    Right, In the Incarnation He was made lower than the angels. In the Incarnation: Jesus took on only flesh and blood of a man that came from the genetics of Mary (and not a nature that was from angels). This would not be contradictory to Hebrews 2 if He already took on the nature of angels long beforehand for a different purpose or reason. Hebrews 2:7, Hebrews 2:9, and Hebrews 2:16 is in reference to the Incarnation and not of His life before that point. There are many seemingly contradictory statements made in the Bible. That does not mean that they are contradictions.
    If you have never received the love that comes from accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, check out this thread here: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?132508-What-is-the-gospel-amp-what-is-it-s-end-goal-or-purpose-for-our-lives

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    In the Incarnation He was made lower than the angels. In the Incarnation: Jesus took on only flesh and blood of a man that came from the genetics of Mary (and not a nature that was from angels).
    But you said that the Lord Jesus put on an empty soulless shell of a body that comes from angels

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    So Jesus put on an empty soulless shell of a body that comes from angels.

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